New Nagra DAC announced at CES - list price $65,000

[BDWoody]

Am I busted?

You've had a bit of a rough start. It's hard to tell if you are here in good faith when you start out like you have.

Ok fine I am very close to pulling a buy order on Nagra. Please don’t hurt me I’m just here to learn that’s all. But it does stand how can a $150 DAC be the same as one that’s $20,000+ no?

They certainly aren't going to be the same, but they will likely sound the same if you set up a test that isolates the ears.

Maybe you can take a little time to get to know the place a little better.

 

[Talisman]

Pardon me to revive the old thread. As I recently purchased Nagra DAC myself I stumbled across this. One thing, he isn’t wrong about digital cables though. Digital cables are not actually digital.

If I wanted to represent a flac file of a piece of music using a (very long) series of glasses which when filled more than half represent a 1 and when filled less than half are a 0, would it be an analogue or a digital signal?
What if I told you that a DAC capable of reading glasses of water could reproduce that song beautifully?

 

[dkinric]

Am I busted? Ok fine I am very close to pulling a buy order on Nagra. Please don’t hurt me I’m just here to learn that’s all. But it does stand how can a $150 DAC be the same as one that’s $20,000+ no?

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Littlemoule]

Lol “once your ban is lifted”, you guys gonna get me banned right? Lol But I read the whole thing but still I saw the review index it’s not like the so called amir never recommended expensive dacs, some are recommended most aren’t but still.

 

[Littlemoule]

I know you guys are thinking of doing to me but I refuse! lol , I demand answers and I will ask questions what’s wrong with Nagra I mean WhatHifi reviewed it here:

Home review

Nagra’s HD DAC proves it can compete with the best in top-end digital

www.whathifi.com

And then there is a question of Eletronic anatomy I mean if you look at the photo there is so much inside it compared to a $150 topping which has so little components inside it. Just don’t put me in quarantine lol

 

[BDWoody]

Lol “once your ban is lifted”, you guys gonna get me banned right? Lol But I read the whole thing but still I saw the review index it’s not like the so called amir never recommended expensive dacs, some are recommended most aren’t but still.

The so called Amir? ummmm...what? That is his name. This doesn't seem to be improving.

Recommendations aren't based on whether stuff is cheap or expensive, they are based on how it performs through the tests he puts them through. These aren't recommended based on sounding better, they are recommended based on being well engineered and effectively transparent, like any other competently chosen DAC.

I know you guys are thinking of doing to me but I refuse! lol , I demand answers and I will ask questions what’s wrong with Nagra I mean WhatHifi reviewed it here:

Why not read the review and comments here, and try to understand that, rather than thow out marketing/propaganda pieces written by those who capitalize on ignorance.

And then there is a question of Eletronic anatomy I mean if you look at the photo there is so much inside it compared to a $150 topping which has so little components inside it. Just don’t put me in quarantine lol

You seem to be coming from a place where you don't really understand how any of it works, but you want to believe a good story. The choices seem to be to dig in enough to actually understand for yourself, or if that's too much work you can just rely on the recommendations from those who do. Arguing against points raised here by quoting WhatHifi isn't a path to success.

 

[Littlemoule]

If I wanted to represent a flac file of a piece of music using a (very long) series of glasses which when filled more than half represent a 1 and when filled less than half are a 0, would it be an analogue or a digital signal?
What if I told you that a DAC capable of reading glasses of water could reproduce that song beautifully?

Ok this is kinda cool so basically digital is a voltage that’s high enough for 1 and low enough for 0, it doesn’t have to be a specific volt to be what it needs to be…. See I’m learning

 

[Littlemoule]

The so called Amir? ummmm...what? That is his name. This doesn't seem to be improving.

Recommendations aren't based on whether stuff is cheap or expensive, they are based on how it performs through the tests he puts them through. These aren't recommended based on sounding better, they are recommended based on being effectively transparent, like any other competently chosen DAC.



Why not read the review and comments here, and try to understand that, rather than thow out marketing/propaganda pieces written by those who capitalize on ignorance.



You seem to be coming from a place where you don't really understand how any of it works, but you want to believe a good story. The choices seem to be to dig in enough to actually understand for yourself, or if that's too much work you can just rely on the recommendations from those who do. Arguing against points raised here by quoting WhatHifi isn't a path to success.

But you say yourself recommendation by Amir is not based on what sounds better. So how would we know if Nagra doesn’t sound better where better is subjective I got that part. Maybe it does? And wait is WhatHiFi despised upon here? I didn’t know lol. I thought they were reputable. But I’m new.

 

[Littlemoule]

They also have dCS listed as recommended buy in audiophile DACs lol:

dCS Rossini Apex DAC review

The most capable digital-to-analogue converter we’ve ever reviewed

www.whathifi.com

Holy shit that one is even more expensive lol than a used Nagra.

 

[BDWoody]

But you say yourself recommendation by Amir is not based on what sounds better. So how would we know if Nagra doesn’t sound better where better is subjective I got that part. Maybe it does? And wait is WhatHiFi despised upon here? I didn’t know lol. I thought they were reputable. But I’m new.

Sound is subjective, yes. However, at some point there aren't enough differences in the output of the signals to be audible to anyone. Taste is subjective too, but if I claim my steak tastes better because of my special fork (which is stainless steel, but special for reasons I can't divulge), and others can't argue because taste is subjective that seems a bit silly. Electrical signals have amplitude, frequency and phase. If the differences between two devices are below the point of audibility, they won't sound different. They can't. There is no place for the special PrAT signal to hide...

What are those thresholds of 'transparency?' Well, those will also certainly be different from one to another, but below some point no one has ears that can hear a fly fart from across the country, and that's basically the levels we are talking about.

As far as WhatHiFi, have you ever seen them perform a controlled test to see if they can determine differences? They don't. When they start doing those, I'll move them from just being another form of advertising/propaganda that capitalizes on ignorance and promotes nonsense, but until then that's pretty much all they are.

 

[Killingbeans]

But it does stand how can a $150 DAC be the same as one that’s $20,000+ no?

Same way a $2 and a $50 bottle of water can "be the same" if they both contain no minerals in an amount that can be tasted.

Although, the $50 bottle can still taste vastly better, even if both bottles are tapped from the same well, but that's just bias messing with you.

It's not difficult to do a D/A conversion of audio information that's completely "transparent" as far as human hearing is concerned, but it's impossible to eradicate the idea of it not being the case. Especially since the biases that "confirm" this suspicion are baked into our biology.

The $20K DAC most likely will sound better, but it's only the looks, the feel and the price tag of the thing that make is so. Do a proper blind comparison, and the gloriousness disappear.

 

[Littlemoule]

well the water analogy makes sense but...
oh by the way, I am gonna be auditioning YH-5000SE
so I will make a new thread for it.

 

[Purité Audio]

If you aren’t just joshing, always loudspeakers and their interaction with the room, for real, tangible and objectively measurable improvements.
Keith

 

[SIY]

well the water analogy makes sense but...
oh by the way, I am gonna be auditioning YH-5000SE
so I will make a new thread for it.

"Audition" is something you do with musicians, not lumps of electronics. If what you mean is "I'm going to listen to a system with this lump in it," that's guaranteed to not get you anything useful regarding sound. It's a great opportunity for the salesman, though...

 

[dkinric]

well the water analogy makes sense but...
oh by the way, I am gonna be auditioning YH-5000SE
so I will make a new thread for it.

So, your first posts here are about a $65k DAC and now you are saying you are auditioning $5k headphones. Either you just have lots of money to burn on audio or you are messing with us. I'm thinking the latter, but I've been wrong before.
@BDWoody , I'm OP and suggest we close this 5 yr old thread before it devolves.

 

[egellings]

https://www.whathifi.com/news/nagra-hd-dac-x-aims-for-digital-perfection

Would be interesting to see how it measures on Amir's test bench. As we approach the limits of audibility in $100 DACs, what does this offer besides snake oil? I'm sure they have prioprietary engineering they claim "improves" the sound without really improving measurable results. When you get to this level of kit, your confirmation bias has to kick in hard and I'm sure you would convince yourself you hear something good...

"The new DAC features no less than 37 individual power supplies, with the main digital power supply claiming a noise level 30 times lower than the HD DAC.
The analogue section uses a dual-mono topology, updated and improved from its predecessor, while new Nagra transformers, built in the company's Switzerland factory, deliver the necessary voltage."

Would love to see a blind A/B test between this and, say, a DX3PRO.

It offers the cache of owning an expensive object, similar to the feeling generated by owning an $83,995 Hermes Lizard Birkin handbag. I just looked that up on their site--it's real--it exists! I'll pick up a couple for the kids!

 

[oleg87]

Am I busted? Ok fine I am very close to pulling a buy order on Nagra. Please don’t hurt me I’m just here to learn that’s all. But it does stand how can a $150 DAC be the same as one that’s $20,000+ no?

When people say audio DACs are a solved problem we mean it. $10 commodity chip DACs cannot be meaningfully improved upon as far as human audibility is concerned. I’m sure you’ll get a nice jolt of placebo effect though.

 

[Littlemoule]

So, your first posts here are about a $65k DAC and now you are saying you are auditioning $5k headphones. Either you just have lots of money to burn on audio or you are messing with us. I'm thinking the latter, but I've been wrong before.
@BDWoody , I'm OP and suggest we close this 5 yr old thread before it devolves.

Oh no I will be listening to it and will post pictures when I get to the shop next week. They have high-end headphones for people to try, you don't have to buy it.

 

[Purité Audio]

You won’t be listening to it, but it will be a component in the system.
Keith

 

[PGansz]

Yep, saw that yesterday...

But let be realistic : @amirm will never get his hands on this. First and obvious reason: same price as a brand new, full option, Mercedes E Class.
Second, there is not any owner (or store) on this earth that will risk to see a potential review where this would measure the same as a 100$ Tone Board. But maybe, I'm wrong.

Anyway, here are the official (and unacceptably poor) tech specs of the predecessor, the HD DAC... I don't see anything stellar (or should worth 30K€):

Full option E class is 100k. This isn't 2005.