[Need Advice] --> [First HIFI Setup] : (Neumann KH 120II or KH150) + (RME ADI-2 Pro FS)

[Gody]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the HiFi world and I'd like to build my first listening system, oriented towards the most neutral and accurate reproduction possible. My aim is to build a coherent, upgradeable setup around quality speakers, accompanied by a DAC and/or amplifier if necessary.

To do this, I really need your advice to make the right choices.

After a lot of reading, particularly @amirm's detailed measurements and analyses, I've decided on two models: the Neumann KH120 II and the KH150.

These two active speakers seem to offer excellent performance, but I'm still struggling to interpret certain technical results, particularly with regard to differences in linearity, distortion, resonance and bass response.


- So I ask myself the following question:

Is the difference in performance measured between the KH120 II and the KH150 significant enough to justify choosing the KH150 despite its higher price?

In other words: does the gain in low-end extension, dynamic range or SPL justify going straight for the KH150?

If so, I'm ready to go for the KH150.


- Reminder: My use is strictly HiFi / listening to music at home, no production or mixing. I'm looking for neutral and faithful reproduction, with a good soundstage. I like to know that the equipment is efficient with a real level of quality.


--> listening setup :

- source --> exclusively from the computer (streaming via Qobuz)

- Listening rooms : [bedroom 12m² / living room about 25m²]

- room without acoustic treatment


I'm also thinking about the DAC/preamplifier combination. I've spotted the RME ADI-2 Pro FS, which seems very complete and renowned for its transparency, flexibility and the quality of its headphone stage.
Is it a good choice for a system with active speakers like the KH120 II or KH150? Is it compatible in terms of output level, connectors, etc.?
If you have any recommendations for relevant alternatives, I'd love to hear them too.


Thank you in advance for your feedback, your opinions will help me make the right choice!

 

[Chazz6]

I have the RME ADI FS-2, and it is an excellent box. Get the user manual, which has a good deal of technical information to satisfy your measurement-oriented standards of quality. And you can see whether its output parameters are a good pair with the input parameters of the next box in the chain. The RME also gives you lots of control: volume, balance, a five-band parametric equalizer, and more.

I stay away from active speakers because I might want a different amplifier some day. For your listening rooms, Revival Audio Atalante 3 speakers would be a good passive speaker choice.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Being able to start out with options like that... man, I'm so jelly. That being said, you tend to learn a lot more from equipment with substantial weaknesses.

In other words: does the gain in low-end extension, dynamic range or SPL justify going straight for the KH150?

That would depend on your actual listening distance, preferred listening levels (got any estimates whatsoever?) und music material preferences. In nearfield the 150s would be overkill, and if in doubt you'd be better off complementing 120s with a KH750.

Is it a good choice for a system with active speakers like the KH120 II or KH150? Is it compatible in terms of output level, connectors, etc.?

Absolutely! A good option if you have the money.

(You can, however, absolutely get by with onboard audio and a Behringer HD400 with the requisite cabling if need be, and perhaps a Topping DX1 for basic headphone driving. The former is how my trusty K+H O110s are connected here. I had originally planned to use a PCIe soundcard after my new system was no longer compatible with my previous Asus Xonar D1, but got fed up with it sabotaging ASPM and unduly increasing my system's power draw. With the data from my measurements I deemed onboard good enough and went with that.)

What I still don't get:

- Listening rooms : [bedroom 12m² / living room about 25m²]

How is that supposed to work? Surely the bedroom would need to get something of its own, and presumably a much less fancy / expensive solution would do in there?

I don't even have speakers in the bedroom any more... when I'm listening there, it's generally in bed, which makes headphones the more practical option. Some HD600s on a little amp on an old laptop (with onboard audio run at 24/192) get the job done just fine there, and honestly the amp isn't even super necessary.

 

[Arindal]

I'm looking for neutral and faithful reproduction, with a good soundstage.

- Listening rooms : [bedroom 12m² / living room about 25m²]

My advice would be: Take the desired listening distance and the room´s typical reverb into account.

Both Neumann speakers are seemingly mid-field monitors with a relatively narrow dispersion for the tweeter and fairly huge distance between midrange´s and tweeter´s acoustic centers. Both in a nearfield environment (i.e. shorter listening distance) or rooms with decreasing reverb towards higher frequencies (due to underdamped midrange) this is not ideal. In a nearfield setup it might lead to an overly direct yet imprecise imaging (similar to a horn speaker), in untreated bigger rooms there is a certain risk of dull tonality of the reverb.

I do not have practical experience with the KH150, but know the predecessors of the smaller models pretty well.

If you have any recommendations for relevant alternatives, I'd love to hear them too.

For nearfield, a coaxial mid/treble arrangement might be superior, for the bigger room something more towards a constant direcitivity speaker without the narrowing dispersion of the tweeter. According to my experience, units like Genelec 8341A offer both, and I would recommend them.

 

[vsch]

I guess both, KH150 and KH120 ii, are excellent. As suggested by @AnalogSteph, I'd probably go with the KH120 ii and add a KH750 sub to get true full-range sound. Since room correction makes a massive difference, at least in untreated rooms, I'd also buy the MA-1 kit from Neumann (or use a UMIK-1 and REW to set the RME's PEQ). Finally, if you want to hear most details, I'd listen nearfield (~0.8-1.5m / ~2.6-5.0 ft away from the speakers) where direct sound dominates.

Genelec Ones, as mentioned by @Arindal, might be even better, but they are also way pricier. If money were no object, I’d probably go for something like Genelec 8341 + 7360/7370 with GLM (or even 8351 + W371 ). However, to be honest, I haven’t heard the Ones and I’m not sure my untrained ears could appreciate the difference to the certainly already excellent KH120 ii + KH750.

 

[Gody]

I have the RME ADI FS-2, and it is an excellent box. Get the user manual, which has a good deal of technical information to satisfy your measurement-oriented standards of quality. And you can see whether its output parameters are a good pair with the input parameters of the next box in the chain. The RME also gives you lots of control: volume, balance, a five-band parametric equalizer, and more.

I stay away from active speakers because I might want a different amplifier some day. For your listening rooms, Revival Audio Atalante 3 speakers would be a good passive speaker choice.

I hesitated for a long time between active and passive speakers, but the Neumann measurements really convinced me. So I'm very keen on getting this type of loudspeaker as my first ones, and the Neumanns seem ideal for that. Thank you very much for the suggestion of the Atalante 3, I'll take note of it - looks like an excellent reference!

 

[Gody]

Being able to start out with options like that... man, I'm so jelly. That being said, you tend to learn a lot more from equipment with substantial weaknesses.

That would depend on your actual listening distance, preferred listening levels (got any estimates whatsoever?) und music material preferences. In nearfield the 150s would be overkill, and if in doubt you'd be better off complementing 120s with a KH750.


Absolutely! A good option if you have the money.

(You can, however, absolutely get by with onboard audio and a Behringer HD400 with the requisite cabling if need be, and perhaps a Topping DX1 for basic headphone driving. The former is how my trusty K+H O110s are connected here. I had originally planned to use a PCIe soundcard after my new system was no longer compatible with my previous Asus Xonar D1, but got fed up with it sabotaging ASPM and unduly increasing my system's power draw. With the data from my measurements I deemed onboard good enough and went with that.)

What I still don't get:

How is that supposed to work? Surely the bedroom would need to get something of its own, and presumably a much less fancy / expensive solution would do in there?

I don't even have speakers in the bedroom any more... when I'm listening there, it's generally in bed, which makes headphones the more practical option. Some HD600s on a little amp on an old laptop (with onboard audio run at 24/192) get the job done just fine there, and honestly the amp isn't even super necessary.

In terms of listening distance, it's mainly short/medium field, from a distance of about [0.80cm to 3m]. I listen to all types of music, classical, rap, electro, pop, soul, funk, blue etc, but mainly jazz.
I'm going to think about it again as buying a subwoofer wasn't in my plans for the near future.

It's true that I haven't yet decided exactly where I'm going to place the speakers, which is why I mentioned two types of room (living room / bedroom). I intend to make my choice based on the location that will offer the best listening quality. I was thinking of going for an desk configuration, so more of a bedroom type room.

I've just had a look at the Neumann KH150 manual: they recommend a listening distance of between 1 m and 2.5 m, with a possible range of between 0.75 m and 6 m. As a result, medium-field listening seems perfectly feasible too.

For those interested, here's the link to the full KH150 documentation for download:
https://www.neumann.com/fr-fr/service-support/Telechargements

 

[Gody]

I guess both, KH150 and KH120 ii, are excellent. As suggested by @AnalogSteph, I'd probably go with the KH120 ii and add a KH750 sub to get true full-range sound. Since room correction makes a massive difference, at least in untreated rooms, I'd also buy the MA-1 kit from Neumann (or use a UMIK-1 and REW to set the RME's PEQ). Finally, if you want to hear most details, I'd listen nearfield (~0.8-1.5m / ~2.6-5.0 ft away from the speakers) where direct sound dominates.

Genelec Ones, as mentioned by @Arindal, might be even better, but they are also way pricier. If money were no object, I’d probably go for something like Genelec 8341 + 7360/7370 with GLM (or even 8351 + W371 ). However, to be honest, I haven’t heard the Ones and I’m not sure my untrained ears could appreciate the difference to the certainly already excellent KH120 ii + KH750.

I didn't mention it but I'm planning to buy the MA-1 Kit. In my opinion, it's essential if you want to get the most out of the speakers. Unfortunately the Genelecs don't fit into my budget.

 

[vsch]

I didn't mention it but I'm planning to buy the MA-1 Kit. In my opinion, it's essential if you want to get the most out of the speakers. Unfortunately the Genelecs don't fit into my budget.

If you get the MA-1 kit, I'd go for the KH 120 ii + KH 750 combo. It gives you true full-range sound, and you can place the subwoofer at an optimal location. Subwoofer integration should be no problem, as it should be automatically taken care of by the MA-1 kit.

In case you don't want a subwoofer, a pair of KH 150 will certainly be great too.

I think in either case, you will have a fantastic system. Happy shopping, and enjoy!

 

[Gody]

If you get the MA-1 kit, I'd go for the KH 120 ii + KH 750 combo. It gives you true full-range sound, and you can place the subwoofer at an optimal location. Subwoofer integration should be no problem, as it should be automatically taken care of by the MA-1 kit.

In case you don't want a subwoofer, a pair of KH 150 will certainly be great too.

I think in either case, you will have a fantastic system. Happy shopping, and enjoy!

I can do without a subwoofer for now, privileging optimum quality of the speakers and then upgrading over time.
Thanks y'all for taking the time to answer and give me meaningful advices.
Is it recommended to purchase one's speakers with an pre-amplifier, or with an amplifier, despite the fact that they already are equiped an integrated amplifier; as I understood that it would. if yes, could you give my some recommendations that would go well with this system (KH150 + RME ADI-2 PRO FS).

 

[digitalfrost]

Buying an amplifier with active speakers will not work. The amp included in the speakers is hardwired to the chassis. Also you will not need a preamp, the RME ADI-2 already can act as one, that is doing source selection and volume control.

 

[Gody]

Buying an amplifier with active speakers will not work. The amp included in the speakers is hardwired to the chassis. Also you will not need a preamp, the RME ADI-2 already can act as one, that is doing source selection and volume control.

Thanks, i'm learning a lot.

 

[vsch]

I can do without a subwoofer for now, privileging optimum quality of the speakers and then upgrading over time.
Thanks y'all for taking the time to answer and give me meaningful advices.
Is it recommended to purchase one's speakers with an pre-amplifier, or with an amplifier, despite the fact that they already are equiped an integrated amplifier; as I understood that it would. if yes, could you give my some recommendations that would go well with this system (KH150 + RME ADI-2 PRO FS).

If you exclusively stream from your computer, you could connect the KH150 digitally to your computer with a cheap USB to SPDIF converter like a Douk Audio U2. You'd need to control volume on your computer, though.

You could also buy an audio interface, such as a Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 for roughly 200 bucks to which you can connect both the MA-1 mic and the KH150 -- either via the digital SPDIF out or via the analog TRS connectors. Digital would be preferable in theory, as it avoids another (mostly transparent) DA/AD conversion; but I'm not sure whether the Focusrite's volume knob works with the digital connection, or whether you would have to control volume on the computer. With the analog connection, the volume knob should work for sure.

The RME ADI-2 would work too, of course. It has a loudness function, which seems to be handy. However, if I'm not mistaken, it is just a DAC (with a headphone amp) and not an audio interface, i.e., you cannot connect the MA-1 mic to it. Moreover, if you do room-correction via the MA-1 kit, you have little use for its 5-band PEQ. Hence, it looks like a rather pricey option, and you'd still need to buy an audio interface to connect the MA-1 mic.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

In terms of listening distance, it's mainly short/medium field, from a distance of about [0.80cm to 3m]

That is quite a range, though I assume you meant 0.8m to 3.0m? Depending on where your primary listening distance is, your best choice based in Neumann's recommendation would vary between KH120 II (<2m), KH 150, or KH310 (3m).

Did you make a decision, and what did you decide on?

 

[Gody]

That is quite a range, though I assume you meant 0.8m to 3.0m? Depending on where your primary listening distance is, your best choice based in Neumann's recommendation would vary between KH120 II (<2m), KH 150, or KH310 (3m).

Did you make a decision, and what did you decide on?

Yes, I did mean from 0.8 m to 3.0 m. My listening range is quite wide because I'd like to be able to enjoy my music both at close range, from my desk, and at a slightly further distance, such as from a sofa a little further into the room, at a typical living room listening distance.

Yes, I've made up my mind: I'm going to go for the Neumann KH150s, and I've finally decided to buy the Neumann MT48 audio interface, which I've just received.

If you have any suggestions for inexpensive XLR cables that offer good value for money, thank you in advance. (brands, models etc).

 

[rcstevensonaz]

If you have any suggestions for inexpensive XLR cables that offer good value for money, thank you in advance. (brands, models etc).

I think you are EU based, so I can't help as much on where to buy pre-made XLR cables. But in general, Worlds Best Cables on Amazon has been well regarded; and search this forum for a lot of different posts on XLR cables.

There is a debate between using 2-wire STP vs. Star Quad wire for balanced interconnects — I fall on the 2-wire STP side. Well regarded manufactures for 2-STP cables include Mogami 2549 and similar from Carne, Belden, etc. Well regarded manufactures for XLR/TRS connectors include Neutrik/Rean, Amphenol, Carne, etc. If the cable is made by a reputable fabricator using such wire and connectors, you won't be able to tell any difference whatsoever.

Edit: I have also purchased several low cost XLR interconnect cables (out of China under a range of different names) on Amazon. And have had absolutely no problem with those either.