New desktop monitors: my shortlist is too long

[D2013]

@RHO I have A7V and KH120 II on the short list and will likely go with the A7V's as i think they look better. From your list, I'd go with the T7Vs, they look good, Amirm has tested the T5V & the T8V (both recommended), and they are decently priced imo.

Something you might not want to hear is i would avoid ARC. To me it's a lot of hype designed to lock you into the companies echo system (something I personably hate). I'd recommend going with a separate mic, software, and hardware. The Topping D50 III and RME ADI-2 DAC FS both support eq natively, and lots of software can be run on a pi or cheap mini computer.

 

[Wolf11Man]

If you use the sub in the position shown in the image, without room correction you will get a diffilcult sound. Second, the inclined wall will be a mid bass amplifier with any speaker at that position. You should position it under one of the mains.
For the Adam's, if you have a sub the TV5 is clearly the better choice (ignoring your sub position). Hiss with them is a result of a mistaken line of levels, common when non PA people play with symetric gear.
If you drive the Bromo with a decend amp, any speaker on your list will have a decent challenger.
Why don't you use something like a Focusrite 2i2 for the PC. Symetric outputs and no noise.

 

[Count Arthur]

Something you might not want to hear is i would avoid ARC. To me it's a lot of hype designed to lock you into the companies echo system (something I personably hate).

Provided your setup uses balanced connections, you should be able to use the ARC in a variety of scenarios, for example:

DAC -> ARC -> Pre Amp -> Power Amp -> Passive Speakers
DAC -> Pre Amp -> ARC -> Power Amp -> Passive Speakers
DAC -> ARC -> Power Amp -> Passive Speakers
DAC -> ARC -> Active Monitors

You could also use an Audio Interface in place of the DAC in any of the above set-ups.

 

[RHO]

For me active in near field (tried 3 non-high end but well reviewed alternatives) all had hiss that was not acceptable at the levels and distance I listen so I returned to passive (KEF R3) with virtually zero hiss, that was total deal breaker for me. Hope you'll have more luck. I understand your issue with leakage of noise, had this also with my hp amp, subtle but not acceptable so I feel for you there

The digital noise is not subtle in my case.
Those KEFs are nice!
Were there any of the 3 active monitors that you tried from the brand that are in my list?
I know that hiss is a risk at this price-point. I'm willing to take that risk, but I try to limit the chance of disappointment by asking people who have used them before I buy.

 

[RHO]

@RHO I have A7V and KH120 II on the short list and will likely go with the A7V's as i think they look better. From your list, I'd go with the T7Vs, they look good, Amirm has tested the T5V & the T8V (both recommended), and they are decently priced imo.

Something you might not want to hear is i would avoid ARC. To me it's a lot of hype designed to lock you into the companies echo system (something I personably hate). I'd recommend going with a separate mic, software, and hardware. The Topping D50 III and RME ADI-2 DAC FS both support eq natively, and lots of software can be run on a pi or cheap mini computer.

Any difference in hiss between the Adam and the Neumann? I've looked at the A-series from Adam. I agree on the aesthetics.
You can combine the IK system with any speaker you like. That's one of the reasons I want to go for that system.

 

[RHO]

If you use the sub in the position shown in the image, without room correction you will get a diffilcult sound. Second, the inclined wall will be a mid bass amplifier with any speaker at that position. You should position it under one of the mains.
For the Adam's, if you have a sub the TV5 is clearly the better choice (ignoring your sub position). Hiss with them is a result of a mistaken line of levels, common when non PA people play with symetric gear.
If you drive the Bromo with a decend amp, any speaker on your list will have a decent challenger.
Why don't you use something like a Focusrite 2i2 for the PC. Symetric outputs and no noise.

The sub in the picture will be sold. It's a passive sub. The new sub is currently in that position but will move to the left side under my desk. The driver will be in nearly the same vertical plane as the left speaker.
The PC is not connected via USB to my DAC (SMSL RAW-MDA1). It's connected via optical out to the DAC. The laptops are connected via USB and as long as the PC is in sleep mode (or off) I have nu issues with digital noise. From the moment the PC comes out of sleep mode I get severe issues with digital noise. No matter what source I'm using. So I think the SE connections are picking up noise or/and the PC is pumping the noise into earth (and this travels to signal ground from the SE signal path.).

Have you ever heard the Bromo? I'm not saying it's a bad speaker. The components used are absolutely great. But it's not the right speaker for this setup.
On my desk it sounds really really boomy.


Seems like there's a small preference for Adam audio.

Provided your setup uses balanced connections, you should be able to use the ARC in a variety of scenarios, for example:

DAC -> ARC -> Pre Amp -> Power Amp -> Passive Speakers
DAC -> Pre Amp -> ARC -> Power Amp -> Passive Speakers
DAC -> ARC -> Power Amp -> Passive Speakers
DAC -> ARC -> Active Monitors

You could also use an Audio Interface in place of the DAC in any of the above set-ups.

The plan is as follows:
DAC (with volume control) -> ARC -> Sub -> active monitors

OK, to entertain you all: What amp would you suggest I should use with my passive speakers? (be it the Bromo or the very old Intertechnik Sputnik 14-2 I'm using now)
It has to have balanced inputs, it needs to be class D, no external powersupply, no volume pot or at least a volume control bypass, compact, black and costs less than a pair of active monitors from my list.

 

[Count Arthur]

The sub in the picture will be sold. It's a passive sub. The new sub is currently in that position but will move to the left side under my desk. The driver will be in nearly the same vertical plane as the left speaker.
The PC is not connected via USB to my DAC (SMSL RAW-MDA1). It's connected via optical out to the DAC. The laptops are connected via USB and as long as the PC is in sleep mode (or off) I have nu issues with digital noise. From the moment the PC comes out of sleep mode I get severe issues with digital noise. No matter what source I'm using. So I think the SE connections are picking up noise or/and the PC is pumping the noise into earth (and this travels to signal ground from the SE signal path.).

Have you ever heard the Bromo? I'm not saying it's a bad speaker. The components used are absolutely great. But it's not the right speaker for this setup.
On my desk it sounds really really boomy.


Seems like there's a small preference for Adam audio.

The plan is as follows:
DAC (with volume control) -> ARC -> Sub -> active monitors

OK, to entertain you all: What amp would you suggest I should use with my passive speakers? (be it the Bromo or the very old Intertechnik Sputnik 14-2 I'm using now)
It has to have balanced inputs, it needs to be class D, no external powersupply, no volume pot or at least a volume control bypass, compact, black and costs less than a pair of active monitors from my list.

Given you're in Belgium, makers of the finest beer in the world , perhaps one of the Audiophonics amps:

Audiophonics

www.audiophonics.fr

 

[Ktacos]

On my desk it sounds really really boomy.

Every speaker will without some corrective EQ.

 

[RHO]

Given you're in Belgium, makers of the finest beer in the world , perhaps one of the Audiophonics amps:

Audiophonics

www.audiophonics.fr

You could have guessed: I was already looking.

Every speaker will without some corrective EQ.

Sure, but the difference between the Bromo and the current speaker is ...significant.
And I'm convinced that the less correction that is required the better the end-result can be after EQ.

 

[Wolf11Man]

You can't blame a speaker for it's sound when you put it into a position that is acoustically forcing it to have a catastrophic response. If you insist on using the speakers like that, only a seriously wrong tuned speaker may sound better or what you expect to be "right".

You noise problem is nothing normal, but points to some serious fault in your gear. First on my list would be the power supply of the PC. Simply use another PC in the same position and see what changes. Noise gone= PC defective. If you can, dig deeper, if not remove it. Don't continue and try to fix an unfixable problem with more, different hardware.

Don't mix your specific hardware problem with any characteristic of a speaker, hiss or anything else you have "heard of".
There are so many people out there using stereo stuff wrong, that even the best products have problems sometimes. Folks always blame anything else for their problems but the main cause: Their own inability to install a fault free system. The internet is full of such stuborn people talking good products down.

None of the products on your list have any design flaws. They just can be used wrong quite easy and are more complicated than passive speaker. More options means more to do wrong.
As I don't know all of them, my favorite would be the ADAM TV5 which has a great price/ performance ratio (the best?) and does nothing wrong. For your hearing position + sub a smaller cone is better than a large one. Just a physical fact. So considering ADAM, smaller one is better.

My solution to your problem would be an active speaker, sub and a dedicated music PC (or laptop, but your own!) and some room correction. Which depends on your personal preference and budget. REW is great and free.
A good start would be a low priced, calibrated microphone like the Sonarworks SoundID Reference Measurement Microphone. Stay away from USB microphones, as they can not measure time dependent correctly. Which makes an interface with powered XLR a must have. Focusrite rule in price/ quality if you get one of the earlier generations.
Only buy an USB mike if you are 100% sure the room correction you use has no problem or limitation with it.

A last point. People build dedicated rooms to listen in with very special planing. They know it is impossible to turn any broom closet into a concert hall.
So accept your rooms and listening positions limitation or change them. Maybe it is time for a redesign of the interior?

 

[Penelinfi]

I can agree with desk setup creating a bass issue, when with relativity small drivers, they still have a bit of 130Hz boost in my case. Even 3" drivers .

 

[Ktacos]

I can agree with desk setup creating a bass issue, when with relativity small drivers, they still have a bit of 130Hz boost in my case. Even 3" drivers .

Not to mention the smaller they are, the higher in frequency they tend to start radiating omni, so even worse for a desk than some larger woofer speakers.

Sure, but the difference between the Bromo and the current speaker is ...significant.
And I'm convinced that the less correction that is required the better the end-result can be after EQ.

Are you stating they're different in regards to an improvement in desk related issues, or just that they're different?

I don't think the amount of filtering is particularly indicative of much in this context. You have a target and need to solve the equation to hit the target. Sometimes it means many filters, sometimes it means few. Sometimes the filter tasks are pretty simple but still required quite a few filters to get the right shape.

You space and placement is just kind of a reflection factory. There aren't a lot of scenarios for home listening that are worse than having a speaker on desk AND have the ceiling be basically right up on the speakers as well. I don't believe this kind of loading really affords one the luxury of using minimal filters. You're gonna need some heavy handed EQ to tame that spot, which you will very likely realize quite quickly if you ever attempt toss some EQ on your speakers.

 

[RHO]

You can't blame a speaker for it's sound when you put it into a position that is acoustically forcing it to have a catastrophic response. If you insist on using the speakers like that, only a seriously wrong tuned speaker may sound better or what you expect to be "right".

Where did I say this has no effect? It has effect on all my speakers. But speakers that already have a small issue in this region will have an even bigger one compared to speakers who have no issues like that in an anechoic situation.
Both will sound wrong, but one will clearly sound more wrong than the other. And the one that sounds less wrong will later on be easier to correct then the other.

You noise problem is nothing normal, but points to some serious fault in your gear. First on my list would be the power supply of the PC. Simply use another PC in the same position and see what changes. Noise gone= PC defective. If you can, dig deeper, if not remove it. Don't continue and try to fix an unfixable problem with more, different hardware.

Could be. But the problem did not exist before I had the sub in use. The wires got much longer and the quality of the wires is very basic. I'm not planning on replacing them by different RCA cable since I have just received everything I need to build a nice quality set of XLR cables. That was already the plan, even from before I had the new PC.
I can try with a different PC. I still have the one that got replaced by this new PC sitting in the attic.

Don't mix your specific hardware problem with any characteristic of a speaker, hiss or anything else you have "heard of".
There are so many people out there using stereo stuff wrong, that even the best products have problems sometimes. Folks always blame anything else for their problems but the main cause: Their own inability to install a fault free system. The internet is full of such stuborn people talking good products down.

Like you blaming the supply in my new PC?
I have not blamed any product for my digital noise issues, except the shoddy wires I'm using to connect the new sub to the DAC. Those are the only ones I have that are long enough and I'm only using them because I already had the plan on replacing them with XLR cables. I just had to order a few parts before I could start with building them.

None of the products on your list have any design flaws. They just can be used wrong quite easy and are more complicated than passive speaker. More options means more to do wrong.
As I don't know all of them, my favorite would be the ADAM TV5 which has a great price/ performance ratio (the best?) and does nothing wrong. For your hearing position + sub a smaller cone is better than a large one. Just a physical fact. So considering ADAM, smaller one is better.

That why I have mainly put speakers with 5" woofers in my list. Except for the Adam T7V and Kali LP-6. And there is a reason they were at the bottom of the list. The Kali climbed a bit, just because of the general quality of the speaker.
Size is indeed a factor I take into account when choosing.

My solution to your problem would be an active speaker, sub and a dedicated music PC (or laptop, but your own!) and some room correction. Which depends on your personal preference and budget. REW is great and free.
A good start would be a low priced, calibrated microphone like the Sonarworks SoundID Reference Measurement Microphone. Stay away from USB microphones, as they can not measure time dependent correctly. Which makes an interface with powered XLR a must have. Focusrite rule in price/ quality if you get one of the earlier generations.
Only buy an USB mike if you are 100% sure the room correction you use has no problem or limitation with it.

I already have UMIK-1 laying around for years.
I will use it but I will consider a better solution. I'll ask IK Multimedia what they think about it.

A last point. People build dedicated rooms to listen in with very special planing. They know it is impossible to turn any broom closet into a concert hall.
So accept your rooms and listening positions limitation or change them. Maybe it is time for a redesign of the interior?

I'm not expecting perfection. Not by far. Only better than what I have now.
I'm not even unhappy with what I have now. (except for the digital noise) But I know that with small investments I can improve on the sound.
I'm even considering small amounts of room treatments.
Step by step.
First the balanced cables. Then some active monitors. Then ARC. And in the meantime figuring out if the PC (supply) is faulty.

 

[RHO]

Are you stating they're different in regards to an improvement in desk related issues, or just that they're different?

The Bromo is already a bit boomy in a free standing situation in a bigger room. The current speakers I use are not. Put the Bromo in the spot on my desk and the problem is even more apparent. With the other speakers you will also notice it, but to a lesser degree.

 

[RHO]

Given you're in Belgium, makers of the finest beer in the world , perhaps one of the Audiophonics amps:

Audiophonics

www.audiophonics.fr

Found 2 models that could maybe be an option.
audiophonics-ap300-s125nc
audiophonics-mpa-s125nc-xlr
I fear both will have way too much power, limiting the useable range on the volume knob quite a bit. Although even double the power of the Aiyima A07 would only mean ~3dB difference. (do we know the gain difference between these amps?)
Both are still quite large compared to the Aiyima.
So I still prefer the active monitors.

 

[Count Arthur]

Found 2 models that could maybe be an option.
audiophonics-ap300-s125nc
audiophonics-mpa-s125nc-xlr
I fear both will have way too much power, limiting the useable range on the volume knob quite a bit. Although even double the power of the Aiyima A07 would only mean ~3dB difference. (do we know the gain difference between these amps?)
Both are still quite large compared to the Aiyima.
So I still prefer the active monitors.

I wouldn't worry about having too much power, it shouldn't be a problem. I once used a pair of 700W mono amps in a desk set-up.

There are some really good, low cost active monitors, and if you don't mind their typically utilitarian appearance, they are going to be hard to beat in terms of performance at a given price, when compared to a separate amp and passive speakers.

Regarding hiss/self noise, that can be an issue with some active monitors and there is a thread about that with a list:

Hiss List (S&R)

Lots of discussion about hiss lately, how perceptible or annoying it is, and if it matters. I've created a sheet with Sound & Recording measurements of hiss in active loudspeakers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1n62hGAdKptSSKC74_fIT_R7DxFJ60YR2_O9C8x-vYQI/edit?usp=sharing Viewers can...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Unfortunately, it's not a very comprehensive list.

It's sometimes possible to reduce hiss by altering the input gain and output level:

Ideally you want a bit of distance, a metre or more, between your ears and the monitors, but if that's not possible, it is something you need to be aware of.

Some retailers have pretty good returns policies, so maybe check that out where you're looking to buy from:

What happens if I am not satisfied? Do I have to bear the return shipping costs? – Thomann United Kingdom

FAQ list "What happens if I am not satisfied? Do I have to bear the return shipping costs? "at www.thomann.de

www.thomann.co.uk

 

[RHO]

Power is also relative to speaker efficiency. But I don't listen loud so I have to attenuate quite a bit already with the Aiyima. The amps I've listed shouldn't be too bad. They not 700W.
Interesting hiss-list. Didn't know it existed. Unfortunately not model specific. But brand specific is at least something. Genelec is in a surprising spot, a little behind Adam.

Thomann is the one I was planning to order from. Got my sub and cables and XLR plugs from them too. They have quality products and good service. And prices are on par with other vendors.

 

[Wolf11Man]

This "hiss list" seems to be quite questionable. ME Geithain and HEDD are world class monitors, no one ever complained about hiss with these.
Surprisingly low (close to non existing) noise is often caused by a noise gate. Such a "zero hiss" speaker may have much more self induced noise with a signal applied and music playing. Which is just as inaudible as the "hiss" of a speaker at the end of this list, as it is perfectly masked by the signal. Also any room has a noise level that should be louder than the monitors hiss at regular listening distance.

People that overestimate the noise of active speakers, usually miss knowledge in audio science. So they take some unimportant data or even own experience, like an ear at the tweeter of a monitor, to prove something they believe to understand.
Just like kids without a driving license discussing the road holding and brakes of a Porsche compared to a Ferrari.

@RHO you wrote the sub will be under one of the monitors, so what problem do you have with "The wires got much longer"?
They should be less than 2 meters. Anyway, if possible and source and amp have XLR, it may be better and break some ground loop.

It seems you are not quite satisfied with the BROMO speaker. With any DIYS project there is the possibility that something was done wrong building it. With speakers there are lossy cabinets (not air tight) and xovers assembled wrong or from incorrect components on top of the list, just as incorrect damping material. Bromo is no speaker that does anything wrong by itself. Maybe look at it again, often some time between building and a second check will show surprising things. Maybe even measure it?

If you have a good measuring mike, why don't you use it? It replaces fantasy with facts. Only if you like facts, of course. A microphone can clearly show problematic frequencys, something your ears are incapable of.

 

[Ktacos]

The Bromo is already a bit boomy in a free standing situation in a bigger room. The current speakers I use are not. Put the Bromo in the spot on my desk and the problem is even more apparent. With the other speakers you will also notice it, but to a lesser degree.

Have you never applied corrective EQ to your setups?

 

[unpluggged]

HEDD are world class monitors, no one ever complained about hiss with these.

Really? I know at least one person who had replaced them with Neumanns in their desktop setup just for this reason, not to mention the complaints online.

Surprisingly low (close to non existing) noise is often caused by a noise gate

But not always. Neumanns do have very low real hiss levels.

People that overestimate the noise of active speakers, usually miss knowledge in audio science. So they take some unimportant data or even own experience, like an ear at the tweeter of a monitor, to prove something they believe to understand.

I would not be so generalizing. If you can hear the hiss at your LP (even if it's just at idle or at low signal levels), it is intrusive enough to be of concern.

Just like kids without a driving license discussing the road holding and brakes of a Porsche compared to a Ferrari.

Thank you for your great attitude towards people whom you do not know. I think age is a factor here, too, but not to your advantage.