'Neutral' high-end CIEMs

[thesp]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for a new set of custom IEMs.

I've spent the last couple of weeks reading, but wading through audio reviews is like reading reviews of wine (there apparently isn't a bottle in existence that isn't relevatory) and I haven't been able to find anything that seems like it will satisfy all of the things that I want. It seems as though most manufacturers these days are tuning for some specific signature, rather than [neutrality] (whatever that is). The things that I'm after are:

- Must be custom (I need the isolation and fit)
- Neutral / analytical / reference sound
- Detail and texture
- Expansive soundstage
- Ideally with an IPX / 7-pin connector
- Ideally a Western manufacturer (because I'm after CIEMs, and to make it easier if I have any problems with them)

I spent my teenage years listening to ER4S and for the last decade I've been listening to JH Audio JH13s (v1s) and Laylas. I liked the soundstaging and resolution of the Laylas, but I hated the bass tuning (I always set it to minimum, which is approximately flat in the bass / sub-bass) and I was aware of the roll-off in the treble (I didn't prefer it, but I was used to it). I suspect that I'd find the ER4S quite thin and bright if I listened to it today. That suggests to me that I'll probably like a FR curve with flat / mildly boosted bass plus somewhere between flat / pinna-gain in the mids and treble.

On my shortlist are:

- 64 Audio A12T: seems to be loved by the general community, but I note amir's review here and the bass is seriously boosted. I worry about excessive bass unless I use the mx apex module, but that will kill the isolation
- Vision Ears VE8: seems to be generally considered comparable with the A12T
- UE UERR: more neutral CIEM, but reviews generally seem to be ambivalent and note that it's something of a retreat from the neutrality of the original UERM
- InEar Prophile 8: seems to have a reasonable approximation of a neutral curve with pinna gain

Things that I've considered and rejected are:

- Hidition Viento: seems like a worthy successor to ER4S, but difficult to arrange CIEMs from a Korean company (and I don't have a local distributor)
- Unique Melody MEST MKII: customs are available, but Chinese; too hard to get CIEMs
- Thieaudio Monarch MKII: only available in UIEM
- Moondrop: doesn't do customs

Any ideas are much appreciated!

 

[markanini]

I'm not sure you will get the type of answers you are looking for on ASR. The high end IEM market highly fraught with incentives and hidden bias. Not to dissuade you completely, there's a place for subjective evualation of headphones and IEMs, much more so than speakers and DACs. If nothing else I can suggest you take recommendations only from people lacking an obvious relationship with brands and reltailers. Most high volume reviewers fall into this category unfortunately and should be taken with a grain of salt. And some others larp as freelancers, without disclosing their association with larger outfits like Headphones.com.

I suspect you might be looking for a generalist set? Too much talk in the IEM space is about sets that excel with specific genres, to be in rotation with other genre specific sets in an enthusiasts collection. This context is almost always obscured, so giving you a heads up in case that's not what you want. You don't necessarily have to spend four digits to get a good generalist set, see this blind shootout which includes a the Monarch MKII and two sets below $80. He also mentions how the hybrid Monarch MKII is harder to drive. Either way recommendations can't really substitute your own personal experience. So maybe it's better to take the opportunity to try 2-3 less costly sets, to figure out what you like first. You will likely be more happy with your final choice that way. Maybe Truthear Red, Truthear Hexa and JuzEar 41T.

Then you mention CIEM as a requirement which is a complicated matter. AFAIK no one offering this service can explain how they maintain the tuning parity with their universal counterparts. Objective graphs are rarely available, and the customer base is so small that you will find few to talk to about them, with hands on experience. Have you considered that with any luck most perks of CIEMs could be found in an UIEM, if you try a few?

 

[thesp]

I agree that the world of headphones and IEMs is more priming effects, biases, and commercial / social incentives than anything else, which is why I've come here - I'm trying to maximise the objectivity of my decision - but I'm constrained by:

- Almost all of the sources that are available to me (headphone reviews) are effectively nonsense
- There are some data-driven assessments (like amir's), that can help me select on the basis of FR and distortion
- It's not clear to me that we have any ways of assessing important qualities like transients and imaging, so our objectivity is limited to only some critical characteristics

Since I last bought a pair of IEMs, the world seems very much to have shifted towards intentionally coloured sounds, and particularly the Harman curve - which I find horrible, because it sounds like every ****** Bose or Sonos system that's ever been owned, where the owner's first order of business is to crank the single-parameter bass and treble controls to the max - so my default assumption is that finding a pair with an FR that is perfect for what I want is going to be hard, and that I'll just end up EQing whatever I buy closer to a personal preference curve.

That means (I think?) that I'm really searching for a CIEM that:

- Has low distortion
- Has high performance for those qualities that are less easy to measure or aren't specifically a function of FR (like transients / imaging / detail)

That gives me the best technical 'base' to modify with EQ. Does that approach of finding a high quality 'base' then tuning it seem sensible / am I missing anything major?

I think the issue that I'll have is that I can find something with low distortion and high compliance with a target curve (like the Truthear x Crinacle Reds), but I still have no objective information on what the non-FR qualities are like (transients / imaging / etc), and then I'm back to relying on subjective reviews.

The reason that CIEMs are important for me is because CIEMs will give me the most consistent experience - as a combination of fit and seal (I spent half my time with ER4S trying to get the depth and seal exactly right and then keep it in position, which is both annoying and changes the FR), and isolation (it makes no sense to me to spend all of this time agonising over the performance of devices, then listen to them in places with a 40-60 dB noise floor).

 

[Curvature]

Learn something about your hearing first before buying or assuming custom is necessary.

Fit and seal affect LF response well into the hundreds of Hz, while ear canal shape and length affect HF above a few kHz.

As such, every IEM will introduce some level of immeasurable variability you'll have to learn to recognize. Almost all new IEMs with large casings sitting in the concha don't fit me, for example, and I get terrible bass response which doesn't match the measured curve. Most silicon tips are uncomfortable. My only comfortable and consistent pair are Etymotic ER4s with Comply foam tips. Good isolation, reasonable distortion, and some EQ for the bass and highs, and done.

"Generalist" or "music genre specific" IEMs don't exist. It's stupidity. Same goes for speakers and headphones.

"Transients", "detail", "soundstage" and almost everything else for IEMs is limited to FR since by inserting them in your canals you are removing almost all of the outer ear/head/torso cues you normally use to localize and perceive sound spatially.

 

[Pe8er]

- 64 Audio A12T: seems to be loved by the general community, but I note amir's review here and the bass is seriously boosted. I worry about excessive bass unless I use the mx apex module, but that will kill the isolation

I own these, a word of warning: these are not neutral by any stretch. Elevated bass and muffled highs. I use them with Qudelix 5K to EQ them back to flat (more or less) and the result is satisfying. Other than that, they're super comfortable, seal is fantastic, cable is okay.

I also own Truthear Zero and sound quality comparison out of the box is rather embarrassing for A12t

 

[markanini]

"Generalist" or "music genre specific" IEMs don't exist. It's stupidity.

Sounds like you're taking away something from my comment, different from what I intended. I'm talking about objectively deficient sets that get overvalued by listeners with one sided preferences, or listeners with a collectors mentality.

That's an opposing concept to breaking Audio's Circle of Confusion. That's why I'm questioning it's prevalence, and it's role in frequently rationalizing bad recommendations, by obfuscated context: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html

 

[bodhi]

"Transients", "detail", "soundstage" and almost everything else for IEMs is limited to FR since by inserting them in your canals you are removing almost all of the outer ear/head/torso cues you normally use to localize and perceive sound spatially.

This cannot of course be accepted by IEM hobbyists, otherwise that's it for the hobby. You can get the Truthear Zero:RED for lunch money and add whatever EQ you like to match any boutique IEM.

 

[Pe8er]

I think I can tell when an IEM has good "detail" or "separation" - which basically comes down to correct frequency response and low distortion. But soundstage? In IEMs? No way.

 

[Oso Polar]

But soundstage? In IEMs? No way.

Somehow they do it. For example, for me the mentioned above Truthear Zero have much wider soundstage than HD600.

 

[Curvature]

Sounds like you're taking away something from my comment, different from what I intended. I'm talking about objectively deficient sets that get overvalued by listeners with one sided preferences, or listeners with a collectors mentality.

That's an opposing concept to breaking Audio's Circle of Confusion. That's why I'm questioning it's prevalence, and it's role in frequently rationalizing bad recommendations, by obfuscated context: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html

I'm not sure I completely follow. Apologies. I'll try not to get too hung up on semantics.

 

[thesp]

Thanks everyone for your advice.

I guess the ultimate question is this: do we agree that - at least in the special world of IEMs - all relevant sonic characteristics are fully captured by FR curves, so that one pair of IEMs that are EQ'd to match the FR curve of another pair will (within the limits of human perception) perfectly reproduce the sound of that other IEM?

Put another way, do we collectively agree that if we have accurate FR curves, we can get Truthear x Crinacle Reds to reproduce the sound of [insert your favourite TOTL IEM here] exactly?

If that's so, then the optimal thing to do is to purchase the cheapest pair of IEMs that meet my requirements (CIEMs, 7-pin / IPX, good build quality, Western vendor) and EQ them.

 

[Oso Polar]

do we collectively agree that if we have accurate FR curves, we can get Truthear x Crinacle Reds to reproduce the sound of [insert your favourite TOTL IEM here] exactly?

No, we don't. And, anyway, where will you get such "accurate FR curves" for your ears?

 

[thesp]

I can't get accurate FR curves for my ears, so I treat that as an unknowable / unsolvable problem, disregard it, and hope that we'll see some accurate way to measure HRTF/PRTF at some point in my lifetime

 

[SDC]

I have opened two 64 audio uiem.
Not sure their ciems are much better than that...
I use lots of eq for 64audio uiem...

 

[thesp]

I saw your threads and backed away from 64 Audio - thank you

 

[markanini]

I can't get accurate FR curves for my ears, so I treat that as an unknowable / unsolvable problem, disregard it, and hope that we'll see some accurate way to measure HRTF/PRTF at some point in my lifetime

From my repeated personal tests, EQ matching functions don't sound the same.

 

[thesp]

Hi everyone,

I did the smart thing and went and auditioned a bunch of UIEMs, rather than trying to make a decision from FR curves and reviews on the intertubes.

I listened to:

- 64 Audio U12Ts
- Sony IER-Z1R
- Empire Odin
- Unique Melody MEST MK II
- Vision Ears EXT
- JH13s v2 (bass on min)
- Ultimate Ears Reference Remastered

My main impression is of how coloured (and ******) equipment has become - it feels like everyone's tuning now for the post-millennial, vapid pop music generations - people who listen to top-50 on the train on Airpods, think +10dB bass and +5dB treble sounds amazing, talk about the emotional depth of TayTay's music, and use phrases like "that drop".

Everything is tuned for maximum 'obviousness' to appeal to common tastes - people who walk into electronics stores and buy the TV with exaggerated contrast and frame interpolation - the visual equivalent stuff like this - nature photos that are meant to celebrate the majesty of nature, and are instead tasteless, over-saturated, artificial junk.

It's disappointing. It makes me think that we're on a perpetual, downward spiral that's being led by vulgarity - it started with collapsing dynamic range, then replacement of instruments with synth, then autotune ... and now what do we have? Music that matches the taste of the masses - epheremeral, vacuous content that's produced by teams of people for purely commercial motives, to be consumed and discarded; music that matches cruise ships and reality TV and Fast and the Furious 11.

 

[markanini]

Maybe you just discovered that the the high end market isn't that discerning, in practice. If you are determined to own a pricey set, at least try Moondrop blessing 2 Dusk. It has some objective metrics it can stand behind.

 

[thesp]

Yeah - it really isn't discerning at all. While I was auditioning the gear, I was sitting next to some guy who was listening to a pair of Dan Clarks - and using them to listen to some junk cpop. Why in god's name would you spend $5000+ to listen to recordings that have absolutely no technical depth at all? What is he hoping to get out of it? More immediacy from the synth instruments? More intimacy with the autotuned, metallic voice? WTF.

I bought some Truthear x Crinacle Red Zeroes out of curiosity while I decide on a serious pair to buy. They arrived today, and my immediate thought is that they sound nothing like well-tuned speakers in an ideal room; it's like getting into some Lebanese bro's car - all booming woofer and harsh, fatiguing gain through the upper-mids and treble.

How did audiophilia go from selecting for accuracy to selecting for bro doof doof shit? Why do we need an intrusive bass shelf applied to every song and style of music?

GEORGE IS GETTING UPSET

Anyway, I'm pretty much out of ideas. I'll go listen to the UE RR again, as the closest thing that I've been able to find to a more neutral presentation.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Yeah - it really isn't discerning at all. While I was auditioning the gear, I was sitting next to some guy who was listening to a pair of Dan Clarks - and using them to listen to some junk cpop. Why in god's name would you spend $5000+ to listen to recordings that have absolutely no technical depth at all? What is he hoping to get out of it? More immediacy from the synth instruments? More intimacy with the autotuned, metallic voice? WTF.

I bought some Truthear x Crinacle Red Zeroes out of curiosity while I decide on a serious pair to buy. They arrived today, and my immediate thought is that they sound nothing like well-tuned speakers in an ideal room; it's like getting into some Lebanese bro's car - all booming woofer and harsh, fatiguing gain through the upper-mids and treble.

How did audiophilia go from selecting for accuracy to selecting for bro doof doof shit?

GEORGE IS GETTING UPSET

As has been noted above, perceived IEM frequency response is as much a function of fit and the unique shape of your inner ear as anything else.

The Harman Curve wasn't developed to intentionally colour the sound of headphones and IEMs - quite the opposite - headphones or IEMS with actually flat frequency response will not sound "neutral" because you're sticking a driver right up to (or inside) your ear and that completely changes how you perceive sound - such an IEM will sound very bass and treble deficient. The Harman Curve is an average of measurements of a bunch of listeners' preferences, to approximate a "flat" or "neutral" frequency response for as broad a range of listeners as possible. However, if you're a standard deviation away from "normal" in the shape or size of your ear canals, you will not perceive Harman Curve IEMs as "neutral", even though most other people will.

I have a pair of Truthears (non-reds) and I find them generally very close to neutral, but a bit bright. If I EQ the 4-6kHz range and pull it back about -3dB they sound great and don't match your description at all.

One of the advantages of the Truthears is that they have very low distortion, so you can apply EQ to match your tastes. If they're too bassy, turn the bass down. If you need more mids, turn it up, until you find a tuning that sounds right to your ears. They can take it. But I'll bet dollars to donuts that even after tuning them to sound neutral to you, you'll still find their FR curve shows boosts in the bass and treble region and a sag in the midrange, because that's just how human ears work.