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Neumann KH120 for living room?

q3cpma

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#21
Thank you for your answer. This is quite interesting. Do you have a thread you can refer me to, for educational purposes?
Sorry, didn't see your post. No particular post, just lurk a bit here and you'll pick up some facts. Toole's book is usually a good start.
Let's say I want a wide/forgiving listening area - what would you recommend I look out for?
1) Smooth power response. Which means 3-way, usually.
2) Coaxial speakers so that reflections don't taint the sound too much, even with a significant listening distance.
3) The "speaker axis crossing in front of you" trick, if you have well behaved speakers in dispersion.
Also based on room size, would you recommend tower speakers for my purposes, even if I plan on adding subs?
Only good towers I know of are the Revel, KEF R/Reference series and maybe Focal Aria/Chorus.
In general it seems like I need to do more research before looking into specific models. Do you know about a comprehensive, research backed guide that covers speaker set up with regards to room size, listening distance, room treatment, subwoofer integration, etc.?
Too much questions at once. There are some invariant in the answer, though: more than one subwoofer is way better, digital room correction is almost mandatory (Genelec/Neumann have their own system, passive speakers usually rely on stuff like Dirac or Denon Audyssey), speakers should be placed either very near or very far from walls/corners to avoid SBIR (placing them near wall and correcting for boundary gain gives you free LF headroom, don't miss it!).

Forgot this: you could try to find some used big Genelec like the fellow here who got vintage 1032As. Or try Behringer's clone (B2031A).
 
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#22
APS Klasik 2020 data (pdf downloadable at their website):
THD: 0.005 % 5W, 1 kHz; 0.1 % max [from] 0.1 up to 50W, 20Hz up to 20kHz [I understand this must be amplifier´s data?]
FR: ± 2 dB: 39 Hz - 25 kHz
The FR at SoS´s review looks excellent...
All that said, earlier today I heard a pair of Kh-80 in the nearfield, and I must say their realism and coherence is spooky, it´s like feeling-watching surreal presences infront of you...
 

q3cpma

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#23
APS Klasik 2020 data (pdf downloadable at their website):
THD: 0.005 % 5W, 1 kHz; 0.1 % max [from] 0.1 up to 50W, 20Hz up to 20kHz [I understand this must be amplifier´s data?]
FR: ± 2 dB: 39 Hz - 25 kHz
The FR at SoS´s review looks excellent...
I mean graphs and actually useful stuff (anechoic on and off-axis frequency response, power response, THD at multiple levels, possible IMD, etc...).
 

DjBonoBobo

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#24
That said, I'd still love to occasionally have an ideal representation of what went into the recording - even if it means locking myself into fixed position.
digital room correction is almost mandatory
I don´t want to convince you into buying Neumann, but even agreeing to the opinion that the KH120 itself may not be the best option for you i still think the combination of KH120+KH750+MA1 is the one to beat in your case.
The MA 1 is quite new and i really don´t know what it means for using the KH120 at 3 meters. I think it is absolutely possible that it fixes the "darker" sound of the KH120 at this distance. I don´t know, though.
 
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#25
I mean graphs and actually useful stuff (anechoic on and off-axis frequency response, power response, THD at multiple levels, possible IMD, etc...).
There is only sound&recording report of original Klasiks: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/aps-klasik-nahfeldmonitor-im-test/
and SoS measurements of Klasik 2020:
1.PNG
2.PNG
So honestly not really much. I asked APS for their own measurements but didn't get any response sadly :/ and I asked in Polish.

THD values from S&R are not too optimistic and iirc Klasik 2020 use same drivers.
 
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q3cpma

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#26
There is only sound&recording report of original Klasiks: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/aps-klasik-nahfeldmonitor-im-test/
and SoS measurements of Klasik 2020: So honestly not really much. I asked APS for their own measurements but didn't get any response sadly :/ and I asked in Polish.

THD values from S&R are not too optimistic and iirc Klasik 2020 use same drivers.
Makes clear how incredible the KH120A is when it goes as loud or louder across the whole spectrum with just a little less LF extension.
 
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#27
Makes clear how incredible the KH120A is when it goes as loud or louder across the whole spectrum with just a little less LF extension.
Yeah, that's why I switched from Klasik 2020 to KH120 :D

I have noticed a direct competitor to the Kh-120 which could worth investigating: The APS Klasik 2020. It has received a glowing review at SoS (excellent frequency response and almost sealed-box behaviour), it´s bigger (and quite heavier, at 10 kg) and more powerful than the Kh-120, it has a 7 inch woofer
BTW. How is it direct competitor? It is much larger and heavier, also with bigger woofer and more amp power.
 
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OP
Gurkerl
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Thread Starter #28
Having had the chance to check out the room I will be listening in, I can now give further information: the room is 4,9 x 4,2 x 3 (lwh) in meter / 16 x 13,7 x 9,8 (lwh) in foot. I consider that a big room, mostly due to the high ceiling.
I probably won't be able to place the speakers firing down the long side of the room. In general placement will be suboptimal. The speakers will probably be 2m (6,5 foot) apart, though I would listen at a maximum of 3m (9,8 foot) distance.

I know there are still a lot of variables involved, but from the information I've given so far, would you rule out the KH120 + Sub for my room? If so, in what direction would you steer me? Would an 8 inch speaker + sub be better suited for my use case? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Of course, I plan on listening to as many speakers as possible before buying. However I doubt I will get to test them in my room, hence why I am trying to narrow down my choices as far as is reasonable.
 

AnalogSteph

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#29
I think levels would actually be fine, but I'd be worried about dispersion. These kinds of distances are too much for just about any 5", even when the room is well-damped (any indications of how lively it's going to be?). I might tend more towards an 8" with narrower dispersion... B2031A (or the original, Genelec 1031) ... LP8 ... MR824 ... something along those lines at least.
 
OP
Gurkerl
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Thread Starter #30
Something like the Kali IN-8 looks to be a promising option for my use case. Three way design, with coaxial tweeter/mid, 8inch woofer...
The often reported hiss concerns me though, as I don't know how sensitive I am to that.
 

Newman

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#31
Don’t have the KH120, but I think you have been unnecessarily put off it. No reason for it not to sound fantastic at 3m. With sub, as per your plan.

Some of the comments are flat-out perplexing. I sometimes wonder if the myth of the near field speaker taints the discussion, even the experiences of owners.

cheers
 
OP
Gurkerl
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Thread Starter #32
Neumann's website states they should be good for a distance of up to 4m.
I've been mentally going back and forth between options: First it was the KH 120s with the KH 750, then I was almost set on going for Genelec 8040s for now plus saving up for a proper subwoofer, then Kali IN-8s with the WS-12 looked like an attractive option at a cheaper price...
How can one possibly arrive at a solution without being able to listen to some of these first? First world problems :D
 

AnalogSteph

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#33
Neumann's website states they should be good for a distance of up to 4m.
In terms of level handling perhaps. Direct sound dominance will be a different story entirely, it is largely a function of speaker / baffle size. (A small speaker that's EQ'd flat on-axis is almost invariably going to sound dark at a large distance, as it goes omnidirectional below several hundred Hz and power response must be up to compensate for this.) Genelec are taking both factors into consideration here:
https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors
With a given level handling requirement of e.g. 106 dB SPL peak, you can see that the smallest models are running out of steam before diffuse sound takes over (e.g. 8320A: 0.5 m vs. 1.8 m), while the big ones are still good for a mighty racket way past critical distance (e.g. 8361A: >10 m vs. 2.9 m).
 

Newman

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#34
I disagree with what you are saying, and with your interpretation of the Genelec page you linked. It certainly doesn’t say anything gets any darker sounding. Reverberant field can be too bright, too dark, or Goldilocks.

Also would appreciate a little more clarification of what you are saying is desirable: direct sound dominance or diffuse sound dominance? (Not that either is relevant or useful to deciding on a KH120 for home audio playback, but I’m still curious about your central message.)
 
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Gurkerl
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Thread Starter #35
In terms of level handling perhaps. Direct sound dominance will be a different story entirely, it is largely a function of speaker / baffle size. (A small speaker that's EQ'd flat on-axis is almost invariably going to sound dark at a large distance, as it goes omnidirectional below several hundred Hz and power response must be up to compensate for this.) Genelec are taking both factors into consideration here:
https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors
With a given level handling requirement of e.g. 106 dB SPL peak, you can see that the smallest models are running out of steam before diffuse sound takes over (e.g. 8320A: 0.5 m vs. 1.8 m), while the big ones are still good for a mighty racket way past critical distance (e.g. 8361A: >10 m vs. 2.9 m).
Just out of curiosity, would acoustic treatment help in that regard? Of course, the easier solution is to just get adequate speakers for a given room.
 

Newman

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#36
The speakers in question are not inadequate for the application in question.

Inadequate room treatment is, however, a real issue and far more so than the one mentioned, and for every conventional speaker.
 
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#37
In terms of level handling perhaps. Direct sound dominance will be a different story entirely, it is largely a function of speaker / baffle size. (A small speaker that's EQ'd flat on-axis is almost invariably going to sound dark at a large distance, as it goes omnidirectional below several hundred Hz and power response must be up to compensate for this.) Genelec are taking both factors into consideration here:
https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors
With a given level handling requirement of e.g. 106 dB SPL peak, you can see that the smallest models are running out of steam before diffuse sound takes over (e.g. 8320A: 0.5 m vs. 1.8 m), while the big ones are still good for a mighty racket way past critical distance (e.g. 8361A: >10 m vs. 2.9 m).
Hey Gurkerl, I was at a similar place a few weeks ago (I am listening in a rather big, untreated room with suboptimal speaker placement) and I aimed to try speakers similar to the ones that you are looking at.
I don’t listen at very loud levels, so I also tested quite small ones, 2way with 5 inch woofers and small cabinets, SPL-wise they were absolutely sufficient for me at any distance in my room, but what AnalogSteph wrote here is really important to consider. The different relative amount of direct and indirect sound seemed to be quite evident when i did my listening comparisons. I didn‘t really experience small monitors sounding darker at large listening distances (3-5 m) than big ones in my room, but I definitely didn‘t like them at these distances (stereo image got lost completely). N of small monitors I tested is only = 2 (i had access to the eve audio sc205 and a small dynaudio studio speaker set that I borrowed from a friend, i would have to look up the exact model) and I read somewhere that the small Neumanns have more narrow directivity, so maybe they would be different in that regard.
 
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Newman

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#38
So the Kii Three, with its narrow baffle and side-firing woofers, is by design prone to dark sound and complete loss of stereo imaging?

I’m afraid that this thread has degenerated into round after round of sighted listening “impressions” and overgeneralisation.
 

Glasvegas

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#39
So the Kii Three, with its narrow baffle and side-firing woofers, is by design prone to dark sound and complete loss of stereo imaging?

I’m afraid that this thread has degenerated into round after round of sighted listening “impressions” and overgeneralisation.
You’ve made some interesting (but brief) comments regarding the advice given on this thread. Unfortunately, the other contributors didn’t respond. Perhaps you could elaborate or provide alternative advice.

I’m genuinely interested as I’m also considering the KH 120s, and my room size and listening position is the same as the OP.
 
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#40
Yes please elaborate, I‘d actually like to understand this. To me, my (limited and subjective) experience with different speakers in my room somewhat correlated to the Genelec critical listening distance chart.
It's clear that you can build low footprint/ physically small speakers that work well at larger listening distance and that driver or baffle size is not the only decisive factor. However, in the chart, within a model range, that critical distance becomes larger with increasing size of the speakers. Is this now due to properties of larger drivers, if all other things are being kept equal, so if construction principle and loudspeaker design doesn‘t change otherwise? Because this is how I understood it so far from what I‘ve read here.
 
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