Need help selecting my first DAC

[Furyosa]

I recently purchased a Dragonfly Cobalt on Marketplace for $100 so I could test if I could hear a difference. I did and it was profound and now I want an actual DAC for my whole system.

I have a Denon S750h receiver. I need a DAC that can connect to my TV, CD Player, and my iPad which I use as a streamer. I’m looking to spend 300-350 max. I considered the Geshelli J2 but I’m hearing mixed reviews. It sucks that DAC’s are so expensive. I’d like something I can be happy with for a while though. I considered the Schiit mobius too but I saw poor reviews on here.

 

[Doodski]

Is your TV a fiber optic output or a coaxial RCA cable?
What output(s) does your CD player output digital from?
You want to use Bluetooth with your iPad?

Because the Denon uses DSP and surround sound and it is common for surround sound receivers to have a ADC/DAC in the signal path you might be duplicating the DACs in that you will have a external DAC outputting analogue to the receiver and then the receiver does the ADC/DAC stuff all over again to the same audio signal. Additionally the DACs are mostly a solved issue and the difference in sound from a dedicated DAC to the Denon DAC will probably be non-audible. I suggest you just use the Denon as a DAC receiver and if you need to challenge my opinion of a external DAC and the Denon sounding the same you could do a blind listening test and have somebody switch them over for you so that you can try and detect a difference.

 

[Furyosa]

Is your TV a fiber optic output or a coaxial RCA cable?
What output(s) does your CD player output digital from?
You want to use Bluetooth with your iPad?

Because the Denon uses DSP and surround sound and it is common for surround sound receivers to have a ADC/DAC in the signal path you might be duplicating the DACs in that you will have a external DAC outputting analogue to the receiver and then the receiver does the ADC/DAC stuff all over again to the same audio signal. Additionally the DACs are mostly a solved issue and the difference in sound from a dedicated DAC to the Denon DAC will probably be non-audible. I suggest you just use the Denon as a DAC receiver and if you need to challenge my opinion of a external DAC and the Denon sounding the same you could do a blind listening test and have somebody switch them over for you so that you can try and detect a difference.

My TV has optical, cd player has optical and coax.

I have my ipad hooked up right now using the dragonfly cobalt but I intend to use it as a hi res streaming device with a wired connection. If I use then denon as a DAC in this case then I’d have to find a lightning to coax cable or something to get the digital audio to the denon.

If thats the case though why do people bother with seperates instead of just buying receivers? Seems like it would be a no brainer if it was an inaudible difference. I don’t have a crazy expensive receiver.

I’m not going to argue against you it’ll save me money but I just want to understand why people pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for them if they don’t do much. Half of this forum is dedicated to DAC’s why wouldn’t yall just get receivers and call it a day? Why waste your time or money?

 

[Chrispy]

I would never buy Fraudioquest anything. You can do as well for far less. Your avr has a perfectly adequate dac, just use it and don't try and add to it unnecessarily.

 

[Doodski]

If thats the case though why do people bother with seperates instead of just buying receivers? Seems like it would be a no brainer if it was an inaudible difference. I don’t have a crazy expensive receiver.

I’m not going to argue against you it’ll save me money but I just want to understand why people pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for them if they don’t do much. Half of this forum is dedicated to DAC’s why wouldn’t yall just get receivers and call it a day?

The optics on this looks kind of strange I agree because peeps are buying dedicated DACs expecting sound quality differences but DACs have a been a solved issue for many years. The specs for DACs will look different but the result at the ear is not decipherable. It the difference is miniscule and too small a difference to hear it. If you want to spend some money then buy better speakers where the difference will be very very obvious. DACs are super popular today for people with PCs where they run the PC directly into the DAC and then connect a DAC with volume control in it to a power amp for a separates system.

 

[Chrispy]

The optics on this looks kind of strange I agree because peeps are buying dedicated DACs expecting sound quality differences but DACs have a been a solved issue for many years. The specs for DACs will look different but the result at the ear is not decipherable. It the difference is miniscule and too small a difference to hear it. If you want to spend some money then buy better speakers where the difference will be very very obvious. DACs are super popular today for people with PCs where they run the PC directly into the DAC and then connect a DAC with volume control in it to a power amp for a separates system.

Let alone the additional issues added extra gear in the chain can bring. Simplicity can work, altho in the case of integrated amps leaving out so many possible features, not so much.

 

[Furyosa]

The optics on this looks kind of strange I agree because peeps are buying dedicated DACs expecting sound quality differences but DACs have a been a solved issue for many years. The specs for DACs will look different but the result at the ear is not decipherable. It the difference is miniscule and too small a difference to hear it. If you want to spend some money then buy better speakers where the difference will be very very obvious. DACs are super popular today for people with PCs where they run the PC directly into the DAC and then connect a DAC with volume control in it to a power amp for a separates system.

I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around this. This whole forum is dedicated to reviewing dacs and deciding which are good and bad theres no way all of you and every other audiophile has spent thousands on dac’s over indecipherable differences. It sounds like you’re saying any dac more than a couple hundred bucks is basically snake oil.

I only got to this point because I just upgraded my speakers for my hifi setup in my living room and I figured the next step would be to get a better dac for streaming from my ipad and listening to my cd player.

So in conclusion… I should not get a dac…ever…? Because receivers will always be just as good?

 

[Chrispy]

I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around this. This whole forum is dedicated to reviewing dacs and deciding which are good and bad theres no way all of you and every other audiophile has spent thousands on dac’s over indecipherable differences. It sounds like you’re saying any dac more than a couple hundred bucks is basically snake oil.

I only got to this point because I just upgraded my speakers and I figured the next step would be to get a better dac for streaming from my ipad and listening to my cd player.

So in conclusion… I should not get a dac…ever…? Because receivers will always be just as good?

My initial impression of your post is you haven't really embraced the information here and have a pre-existing agenda (and not a very good one). It could be the ability of your head to wrap around things....

ps otoh you probably already have an adequate dac if using digital sources.....

 

[Doodski]

So in conclusion… I should not get a dac…ever…? Because receivers will always be just as good?

If you want to build a new system with separates then a dedicated DAC is a good choice but for a person with a decent Denon receiver with ADC and DAC built in the receiver is good enough.

 

[Furyosa]

My initial impression of your post is you haven't really embraced the information here and have a pre-existing agenda (and not a very good one). It could be the ability of your head to wrap around things....

Sorry I’m just confused. I’ve spent the past two days researching dacs, trying to look for one that suited my needs which brought me here, and this is the most dac focused forum I’ve been on. And here, you guys are telling me its unnecessary which is fine I don’t want to waste my money but for years I’ve seen people buying and praising dacs that are a thousand dollars or more. I obviously don’t understand this tech like you guys but I’m just not understanding why people spend anything more then a few hundred bucks on dac’s if the science behind them has been figured out for a long time and performance is nearly indistinguishable between them.

 

[Chrispy]

Sorry I’m just confused. I’ve spent the past two days researching dacs, trying to look for one that suited my needs which brought me here, and this is the most dac focused forum I’ve been on. And here, you guys are telling me its unnecessary which is fine I don’t want to waste my money but for years I’ve seen people buying and praising dacs that are a thousand dollars or more. I obviously don’t understand this tech like you guys but I’m just not understanding why people spend anything more then a few hundred bucks on dac’s if the science behind them has been figured out for a long time and performance is nearly indistinguishable between them.

Understandable. I've not worried about dac implementation for a very long time, but possible if you want it to bother you. Dacs are largely simply a solved issue, there are many large threads here on ASR concentrating on perception of differences, but I'd simply not worry about one aside from its feature set. You can get some awesomely spec'd units but whether you would ever hear an audible difference from some that aren't measuring quite as well, meh.

 

[Doodski]

Sorry I’m just confused. I’ve spent the past two days researching dacs, trying to look for one that suited my needs which brought me here, and this is the most dac focused forum I’ve been on. And here, you guys are telling me its unnecessary which is fine I don’t want to waste my money but for years I’ve seen people buying and praising dacs that are a thousand dollars or more.

I bought a $109.00 DAC from JDS Labs and the test review here at ASR is exemplary but it has zero features and minimal connections at the back panel. For more expensive models they have more connections at the rear panel, volume control, Bluetooth and fancy expesive DAC chips with balanced output etc. This $109.00 DAC has everything for sound quality that one needs.

I’m just not understanding why people spend anything more then a few hundred bucks on dac’s if the science behind them has been figured out for a long time and performance is nearly indistinguishable between them.

As mentioned more features, fancier DAC chips, balanced operation all make the expense to buy one go up. If you don't need all those connectors and volume control and balanced connections then either save your money and buy a inexpensive decent DAC or use the Denon. If me I would use the Denon.

 

[Furyosa]

@Chrispy @Doodski Thank you. You guys saved me some money. Thanks for explaining everything.

 

[Doodski]

@Chrispy @Doodski Thank you. You guys saved me some money. Thanks for explaining everything.

You are welcome.

 

[Robin L]

I’m having a hard tim It sounds like you’re saying any dac more than a couple hundred bucks is basically snake oil.

Yup. Pretty much.
The only real issue is connectivity. I've had real good luck with a $129 Topping E30. It's got USB, Toslink coax and optical inputs, plus a remote. It's possible to shift levels using a remote, but I'm using a Topping L30 headphone amp/preamp for shifting levels. The signal to noise ratio and distortion limit of audibility is 115 db, the E30 measures the combination of the two at 112 db, just shy of perfect inaudibility. If you look at the offerings tested here, you should have no trouble finding a DAC that suits all your requirements for a few hundred or less.

 

[kemmler3D]

theres no way all of you and every other audiophile has spent thousands on dac’s over indecipherable differences.

You're right, we didn't.

I have a Topping DX5 that cost $350. The main reason to spend that much and not just $100 (or less) is because it has XLR out, RCA out, and headphone out, plus a remote. It has good performance but you can get the same numbers for less.

A lot of people spend more because they think it will sound better, but as of now there is very little reason to believe you can get better sound by spending big bucks on a DAC.

Get the features you want, but for the most part performance is really good these days, outside of the absolute cheapest garbage stuff.

Bottom line is DACs are not a big deal when it comes to sound quality, compared to speakers and headphones.

So in conclusion… I should not get a dac…ever…? Because receivers will always be just as good?

There's a chance if you have a decent DAC and a real turd of an AVR you could hear a difference. It's not like it's impossible to buy a DAC that has issues. But the difference between a $100 DAC, a $1000 DAC and a $10,000 DAC is normally going to be less than the difference between a $250 speaker and a $500 speaker. Hope that makes sense.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Sorry I’m just confused. I’ve spent the past two days researching dacs, trying to look for one that suited my needs which brought me here, and this is the most dac focused forum I’ve been on. And here, you guys are telling me its unnecessary which is fine I don’t want to waste my money but for years I’ve seen people buying and praising dacs that are a thousand dollars or more. I obviously don’t understand this tech like you guys but I’m just not understanding why people spend anything more then a few hundred bucks on dac’s if the science behind them has been figured out for a long time and performance is nearly indistinguishable between them.

The most expensive "DAC" I've bought is an RME ADI 2 PRO FS R BE. The DAC in it works really well. For the money, I also get a state of the art ADC (converting analogue signals into digital); complex equalisation options; dual output options; balanced working; selectable output levels; support for MADI, AES; excellent build quality and after-care support.

Almost all of these added features have nothing to do with how the DAC measures or sounds, but to with flexibility and longevity. I estimate I've made use of about 50% of the functions so far, but I keep finding uses for it's functionality that go beyond being a DAC.