Reasonable DAC recommendation

[alland]

Newbie here asking newbie questions.. built a home system a few years ago. Learned a bit along the way. Trying to build a home office headphone system now.

I ordered a Tungsten DS headphone and Violectric v281 LE amp.

DAC hunting seems like it’s filled with pitfalls. Reviewers who can’t be trusted, overpriced boxes, delta sig, r2r and on.. I don’t have to tell you guys

Every time I think I got something figured out, I’m yet again humbled. Feel like wine kinda tops out at $100 to $140.. and can’t really taste a difference in $500 wine. DACs seem to be similar? Feel like I should be able to get a solid performer for under $1000, or is that $500 or $2000.. only more co fused a few months of reading and lurking.

Have looked at solutions from:

Denafrips, Wandala, Geshelli, Cyan 2, SMSL, Topping..

Trying to find a good match with my incoming gear, any feedback is most appreciated

My listening: Mac Studio -> usb -> DAC -> v281 -> balanced cable -> Tungsten DS. Content: Roon, FLAC collection, Tidal, Apple Music

I listen to The Dead. Phish, Classic Rock, The Boss, Jazz.

 

[bachatero]

Looks like you just need a RCA input to the v281 and only need USB to the DAC, so keep it simple and cheap with the SMSL SU-1 which is only $80 and literally tops the charts in performance. Anything more expensive or fancier would bring features that don't apply to your situation or are designed to siphon money from rich people, that's why they exist. There's also the PS200 and the equivalents from Topping and Fosi so look at those too if you like those more instead!

 

[ZolaIII]

Use DAC you already have! If it's a good one up to 25 years back it will do it's job transparent or close to it.

 

[Ropeburn]

Brotip: wine tops out at 5-10 moneys the bottle, especially in Europe. After that, you're well within "diminishing returns" territory. Blind tests have proven that. Most people can't even tell red and white wine apart in a blind test!

It's the same with DACs. 100-200 moneys already gets you state of the art performance. The only difference to the wine analogy is input/output/inbetween features that tend to generally be "richer" on more expensive options.

Choose DACs by your needed features, and practicality like volume control. Chances are, you'll be very satisfied with something well below 500 or even 300 moneys. Digital to analog conversion is trivial technology that is available for very little money at this point.

 

[DVDdoug]

I agree... The DAC (soundcard) built-into your Mac may already be better than human hearing. The cheap Apple Dongle was also highly-rated.

Different headphones (or different speakers) will ALWAYS sound different (better or worse). With headphones, most of the "sound quality" differences are due to frequency response and that can mostly be tweaked with EQ. Except sometimes you can't boost the bass without distorting the headphone or amplifier.

With speakers, it's frequency response, including directivity or off-axis response, and interaction with room acoustics. And, you are even more likely to push the speaker or amp into distortion by boosting the bass... You'll never get bass you can feel in your body from a small woofer or small amp.

Another thing with headphones (not speakers) is that there's almost no correlation between cost and sound quality. You can see that if you sort the reviews here by "recommended". There's also a fair amount of "personal preference" with headphones and your favorite headphone may be different than mine.

Balanced headphone connections are also a bit of a gimmick. Sometimes the balanced connection is louder but with a different design an unbalanced connection can be equally loud or even louder.

Most people can't even tell red and white wine apart in a blind test!

I did not know that!!! (I'm a teetotaler... and a diet soda addict... ).

 

[kemmler3D]

Most people can't even tell red and white wine apart in a blind test!

Wait, really? I kind of doubt this, although you could find some bottles that would make the test hard.

Anyway OP the others are right, even affordable DACs are very good these days so anything reputable will get you over the finish line.

 

[Ropeburn]

Wait, really? I kind of doubt this, although you could find some bottles that would make the test hard.

Anyway OP the others are right, even affordable DACs are very good these days so anything reputable will get you over the finish line.

Yes, really.

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/08/the_most_infamous_study_on_wine_tasting.html

Most importantly:

The wine thing really is symptomatic to everything regarding human experience when it comes to... tastes. And let's be honest here, psychologically it all comes down to tastes in the end, and especially how one sense influences the other - here: seeing vs hearing. Our brains are very vulnerable to deception, especially if it includes more than one sense.

Which is exactly why sites and communities such as ASR are so valuable. By tendency, they put hard evidence over subjective (=easily foolable) human experience.

We humans as a collective have worked very hard to exceed the limits of our ancient and traditionally unchecked experience. We invented microscopes, infrared and ultraviolet cameras, infra- and ultrasonic sensors, ect. pp. You name it - but that still doesn't convince most of us. Because in the end, we're all still humans.

And it still takes an exceptionally educated and especially mentally disciplined human to take advantage of all this historical scientific progress. It's not easy. I'd say less than 1% of any generation ever do.

 

[kemmler3D]

Yes, really.

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/08/the_most_infamous_study_on_wine_tasting.html

Most importantly:
View attachment 430321
The wine thing really is symptomatic to everything regarding human experience when it comes to... tastes. And let's be honest here, psychologically it all comes down to tastes in the end, and especially how one sense influences the other - here: seeing vs hearing. Our brains are very vulnerable to deception, especially if it includes more than one sense.

Which is exactly why sites and communities such as ASR are so valuable. By tendency, they put hard evidence over subjective (=easily foolable) human experience.

We humans as a collective have worked very hard to exceed the limits of our ancient and traditionally unchecked experience. We invented microscopes, infrared and ultraviolet cameras, infra- and ultrasonic sensors, ect. pp. You name it - but that still doesn't convince most of us. Because in the end, we're all still humans.

And it still takes an exceptionally educated and especially mentally disciplined human to take advantage of all this historical scientific progress. It's not easy. I'd say less than 1% of any generation ever do.

While I agree that wine tasting and subjectivists listening to gear are similar, "people can't tell red from white" is not the right conclusion to draw from the paper.

I went and read the actual paper: https://web.archive.org/web/2007092...ademie-amorim.com/us/laureat_2001/brochet.pdf

What the paper actually says (as far as I can tell) is that when you dye a white wine red, people use red wine terms to describe the wine. They did not test whether anyone could discriminate between the two flavors, or blindfold anyone and ask them if it was a red or white.

The conclusion is that cognitive biases (and possibly, importantly, cultural habits) based on appearance heavily influence how people perceive, or at least describe wine. But whether they COULD tell the wines apart is not tested here.

 

[AnalogSteph]

+1 for using the Mac Studio's built-in jack with a 3.5 mm stereo to RCA cable. They usually measure quite well (about 116 dB(A) worth of dynamic range and 2.5 Vrms max if memory serves, distortion I don't remember but probably low enough). Should you encountered any issues with unwanted noises, open the HPA-V281 and move the ground lift jumper from GND to Lift or vice versa (see manual).

If you want to make use of the HPA-V281's balanced input, good DACs with corresponding outputs start around the $200 mark, and decent audio interfaces below that.

 

[alland]

Wine costs and diminishing returns convo aside, some good comments here. There is a chance I will not be connecting my Mac in the chain, I may use a Node X streamer (I already have) or FIIO. Not sure. So want to focus on getting a DAC.

Appreciate that its a personal choice, there are many right answers. Spending a lot of cash isn't always the answer.

I would like a balanced solution, leaning toward the Geshilli J3 upgraded with the Sparkos 2590. It feels like a decent choice, can change the Opamps, under $1000, small company with good customer service, going from 110 to 220 is easy. Anyone have any experience with this DAC?

 

[JIW]

The V281LE can produce 5600 mW at 100 Ohm which is 27.48 dBV. High gain is 18 dB so maximum output requires an input of at least 9.48 dBV which is below what most DACs output balanced as most do either 12 or 14 dBV.

Tungsten DS has a sensitivity of 78 dB SPL at 1 mW and an impedance of 155 Ohm which is equivalent to 78 - 10*log10(155/1000) = 86.10 dB SPL at 0 dBV so you really need a fairly high input level to get the most out of it with the V281LE.