My new AMP/DAC makes no difference, am I doing something wrong ?

[Peter2448]

I recently bought the Beyerdynamics DT990 250Ohm and the Fiio K5 Pro. I will keep the DT990 because they sound better than my HyperX Cloud but for the Fiio I don't know...
I never had a dedicated AMP/DAC so I wanted to test one. I use my headphones mainly for gaming so the two options that I compared were these two:

1.DT990 + headphone jack on my Sony XG9005 TV
2.DT990 + Fiio K5 Pro attached to optical out of the TV via Toslink

I have to say, that I just can't notice some substantial differences. All differences I notice are so small that they just could be placebo. For me this is a bit irritating because when you look at the reviews in for example amazon there are so many people who claim to notice "day and night"- differences and I am sitting here really trying to hear something substantial(to a degree where I can safely say that it isn't placebo). A week ago I also was in a hifi-shop and the man who advised me told me that for 250Ohm I need an amplifier...

I have to say that both options volumewise are perfectly fine(on the TV volume level 20 of 100 is already enough).

I know that sound is subjective but if there are really night and day differences I should hear at least some minor differences or not ? Maybe I need too much time switching between the options ?

I would appreciate any advise.

Thank you

 

[Veri]

All differences I notice are so small that they just could be placebo. For me this is a bit irritating because when you look at the reviews in for example amazon there are so many people who claim to notice "day and night"- differences and I am sitting here really trying to hear something substantial(to a degree where I can safely say that it isn't placebo). A week ago I also was in a hifi-shop and the man who advised me told me that for 250Ohm I need an amplifier...

There's just so much bullshit out there. Most gear won't sound any different. If you have something that needs substantial power and your current laptop/phone can't deliver it, then yes something more powerful will make an appreciable difference. If you have an old motherboard that has noise issues, then yes an external DAC will make an appreciable difference.

In most other cases you'll be splitting hairs. Night and day difference? Please.

 

[Chrispy]

I can't follow subjective opinions on dacs or amps or other electronics seriously....too much fantasy.

 

[Bob-23]

I recently bought the Beyerdynamics DT990 250Ohm and the Fiio K5 Pro. I will keep the DT990 because they sound better than my HyperX Cloud but for the Fiio I don't know...
I never had a dedicated AMP/DAC so I wanted to test one. I use my headphones mainly for gaming so the two options that I compared were these two:

1.DT990 + headphone jack on my Sony XG9005 TV
2.DT990 + Fiio K5 Pro attached to optical out of the TV via Toslink

I have to say, that I just can't notice some substantial differences. All differences I notice are so small that they just could be placebo. For me this is a bit irritating because when you look at the reviews in for example amazon there are so many people who claim to notice "day and night"- differences and I am sitting here really trying to hear something substantial(to a degree where I can safely say that it isn't placebo). A week ago I also was in a hifi-shop and the man who advised me told me that for 250Ohm I need an amplifier...

I have to say that both options volumewise are perfectly fine(on the TV volume level 20 of 100 is already enough).

I know that sound is subjective but if there are really night and day differences I should hear at least some minor differences or not ? Maybe I need too much time switching between the options ?

I would appreciate any advise.

Thank you

If it's loud enough and you don't hear any 'obvious' noise and distortion - stay with TV only. And even if there were a slight improvement, for gaming you don't need 'high end' anyway, do you?

Rightly, you are questioning your testing method insofar, as, indeed, a valid comparison must be switched instantaneously (by an AB- switch box) - at least, if we deal with supposedly small differences. Our acoustic memory is extremely short, most people underestimate that factor. And output voltages have to be exactly matched (max 1% Diff.).

But, as you describe it, I could well imagine, that you wouldn't hear a difference then, too. Typically, I haven't found differences in such a proper comparison, even when I thought - having done the comparison as you did - there were huge differences.

And don't trust amazon reviews (although, I admit I also look into them). Read them critically.

 

[Peter2448]

When I plug the DT990 into the Dualshock 4 for example, then it is fairly noticeable that soundquality degrades a bit. It's just not as fine as with the TV or Fiio.

Lot of people are talking about crappy DACs/AMPs on their Smartphones/PC. I would assume, that most people use dedicated AMPs/DACs with a PC/Notebook/Smartphone. How are the integrated DACs/AMPs on the TV ? I would assume that TVs have better DACs/AMPs in general because most TV manufacturers often tend to advertise great sound and bla bla...

 

[Zensō]

You're fine. People are often very good at fooling themselves, consider yourself lucky. Read this when you have a chance:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/what-we-hear.html

 

[Chrispy]

When I plug the DT990 into the Dualshock 4 for example, then it is fairly noticeable that soundquality degrades a bit. It's just not as fine as with the TV or Fiio.

Lot of people are talking about crappy DACs/AMPs on their Smartphones/PC. I would assume, that most people use dedicated AMPs/DACs with a PC/Notebook/Smartphone. How are the integrated DACs/AMPs on the TV ? I would assume that TVs have better DACs/AMPs in general because most TV manufacturers often tend to advertise great sound and bla bla...

Well I'd not look to a tv for either dac or amp particularly, altho if your needs are modest (or just headphones) that might suffice. Good audio in tv (via speakers) is something I think few tvs have had for many years now.

 

[3125b]

The single most important thing for an (headphone) amp is power. Followed by output impedance (depending on the load). Anything else you will only ever notice if there is something seriously wrong - wich should not be the case with modern mainboard and such for the most part.

How are the integrated DACs/AMPs on the TV ?

The DAC matters hardly at all. A 80dB SINAD DAC will almost always sound just fine, even higher distrotion isn't too noticable, high noise though might be with headphones (the DT990 have high impedance and mediocre sensitivity, so require decent output level making noise not too much of a concern either) more than with speakers.
The amps are more of a concern. From my experience/measurements decent PC mainboards tend to have about 80ohms output impedance and somewhere between 1.2 to 1.65Vrms output level @250ohms, wich will work with your DT990 for the most part, though you might just run out of power at very high listening levels. With low impedance/sensitivity headphones mainboards don't fare too well, with both limited current output and FR changes being a possible issue.
TVs tend to have decent output power on the headphone jack, they do have integrated speaker amps with decent voltage swing and current capability after all. They probably don't measure particularly good, but that's not too much of an issue as stated above. Possible high output impedances might be an issue, I simply don't know. But that doesn't really matter with the DT990 anyway.

 

[Peter2448]

I really didn't know that the PC mainboards tend to have such high output inpedance.

I know that there is the rule that output impedance should be 1/8 of the headphone impedance at most. How does this affect the sound ?
What differences when listening to music could one hear when comparing a 100 Ohm output impedance device and a 1 Ohm output impedance device with a let's say 250 Ohm headphone ?

 

[jcebedo11]

Consider yourself blessed for being satisfied with lower end equipment. You'll save much more money than some audiophiles.

 

[Rockfella]

DT990 + Fiio K5 Pro attached to optical out of the TV via Toslink : The TV is your source in this case.
Connect the K5 pro with a PC via USB and test. You might get lucky

 

[andreasmaaan]

When I plug the DT990 into the Dualshock 4 for example, then it is fairly noticeable that soundquality degrades a bit. It's just not as fine as with the TV or Fiio.

Lot of people are talking about crappy DACs/AMPs on their Smartphones/PC. I would assume, that most people use dedicated AMPs/DACs with a PC/Notebook/Smartphone. How are the integrated DACs/AMPs on the TV ? I would assume that TVs have better DACs/AMPs in general because most TV manufacturers often tend to advertise great sound and bla bla...

Smartphone DACs tend to be pretty good, with distortion and noise generally low enough in level to not be audible. They don't usually produce much power, though, which is fine if you're plugging one into an amplifier or low impedance earphones, but can be a problem if you're directly powering some high-impedance headphones.

 

[Peter2448]

Ok, I made comparisons one more time on my notebook, listening to music on spotify. I have notice some small things:

1.When listening to music with the Fiio it feels, that everything like the instruments, the bass and the singer is better seperated. On the HP jack sometimes it feels that the voice of the singer is drowned out a little bit by the instruments and the bass. Therefore I increased the volume more often when listening over the HP jack. With the Fiio I had't this felling. That is the only thing I could notice. Could this be a "real" difference or likely placebo?

Nevertheless I think that I will return it and finish with the amp/dac topic in general. Even if this differences are somehow explainable I don't think it is worth spending 160€ if one has to search for the differences. I know that my method of testing is not good but I just don't have the time to make big scientific blind tests with this A/B switch. It was good though to have tested it otherwise i would go crazy thinking "what if this AMP/DAC really is a day/night difference...".

 

[micard]

For myself i realized that it’s really hard to reliably tell subtle quality differences in sound while I really concentrate on it, „wanting“ to hear a difference. I think our hearing is very different from e.g. our seeing, in terms of „precision“.
I used to do a lot of Bluetooth SBC vs aptX, Bluetooth vs wired, Tidal Hi-Fi vs „Normal“ quality, etc tests and found that I suck at blindtesting it. I also suck at blindtesting at the audiocheck.com tests.
After those trials I discarded everything about audio quality and went back to listen to Spotify over Bluetooth SBC.

After a short time however I found the quality somehow dissatisfying, it’s really hard to explain why. After a few weeks I switched to tidal hifi again and continued listening to music and I just like it better, without really being able to tell why. I found that sound quality differences are so subtle I realize more in an unscinscious level. I also believe that you can train your ears if you work concentrated on it, which explains why many people are better than others in blindtesting and stuff.

If you are not thinking about the quality and just „consume“ sound, it’s really not worth investing money into it, because most electronics today are on a solid level in terms of not doing massive mistakes in sound reproduction.

Sometimes I wish I would have never opened that Pandora’s box...

because once it’s in your head, you will realize, if still only subtly and more on an unconscious level

 

[threni]

For myself i realized that it’s really hard to reliably tell subtle quality differences in sound while I really concentrate on it, „wanting“ to hear a difference. I think our hearing is very different from e.g. our seeing, in terms of „precision“.
I used to do a lot of Bluetooth SBC vs aptX, Bluetooth vs wired, Tidal Hi-Fi vs „Normal“ quality, etc tests and found that I suck at blindtesting it. I also suck at blindtesting at the audiocheck.com tests.
After those trials I discarded everything about audio quality and went back to listen to Spotify over Bluetooth SBC.

After a short time however I found the quality somehow dissatisfying, it’s really hard to explain why. After a few weeks I switched to tidal hifi again and continued listening to music and I just like it better, without really being able to tell why. I found that sound quality differences are so subtle I realize more in an unscinscious level. I also believe that you can train your ears if you work concentrated on it, which explains why many people are better than others in blindtesting and stuff.

If you are not thinking about the quality and just „consume“ sound, it’s really not worth investing money into it, because most electronics today are on a solid level in terms of not doing massive mistakes in sound reproduction.

Sometimes I wish I would have never opened that Pandora’s box...

because once it’s in your head, you will realize, if still only subtly and more on an unconscious level

It sounds like you've not quite closed Pandora's box. Partly your message suggests you understand there is no difference: "After those trials I discarded everything about audio quality and went back to listen to Spotify over Bluetooth SBC....If you are not thinking about the quality and just „consume“ sound, it’s really not worth investing money into it, because most electronics today are on a solid level in terms of not doing massive mistakes in sound reproduction....." but that you also have a subjectivist mindset "I suck at blindtesting....many people are better than others in blindtesting and stuff....if still only subtly and more on an unconscious level".

One doesn't "suck at blindtesting". Blindtesting can be used to demonstrate that there is no audible difference between pieces of kit that are either exactly the same (two E30 DACs, for example) or audibly the same (the E30 and some other slightly inferior DAC). You wouldn't suck if you fail that test; you'd just be human. Some people would be able to tell the difference between SBC and aptX-HD. If you're one of those people, then it wouldn't be surprising that you found the quality dissatisfying. If you "suck" at the tests though, then I guess that means that you cannot tell the two formats apart, and that the dissatisfying feeling isn't you noticing, say, messy symbols or unclear vocal or whatever, but some unresolved tension about the fact that in this case there is an objective difference between the two things being tested but which you are unable to detect.

 

[BDWoody]

Nevertheless I think that I will return it and finish with the amp/dac topic in general. Even if this differences are somehow explainable I don't think it is worth spending 160€ if one has to search for the differences. I know that my method of testing is not good but I just don't have the time to make big scientific blind tests with this A/B switch. It was good though to have tested it otherwise i would go crazy thinking "what if this AMP/DAC really is a day/night difference...".

You've cut to the heart of the matter. You've gotten to where you realize that you can now relax and enjoy the music.

I think too often people use the hassle involved in setting up a full, scientifically valid test as an excuse to not do anything.

As you found, it doesn't take long before you feel like you're starting to waste your time.

 

[raif71]

You've cut to the heart of the matter. You've gotten to where you realize that you can now relax and enjoy the music.

I think too often people use the hassle involved in setting up a full, scientifically valid test as an excuse to not do anything.

As you found, it doesn't take long before you feel like you're starting to waste your time.

I'm guilty of that but not sorry . Hey with the pre90+extension...would that gear be a good idea to connect multiple dacs to the extension and use the preamp to rotate between the dacs and ABC.. them?

 

[BDWoody]

I'm guilty of that but not sorry . Hey with the pre90+extension...would that gear be a good idea to connect multiple dacs to the extension and use the preamp to rotate between the dacs and ABC.. them?

It's certainly clean enough to make the DAC's what you are listening to.

I've thought about offering my Freya S and a couple of CCA's with analog and digital cables, along with a multimeter to send around as a simple preamp/switcher to use for those who don't have a preamp and no good way to set up a test. Maybe a D50s or something too as an example of what should be good enough to match up with anything.

I used an older Krell preamp when I first set up a test. After I got the Freya I did it again to see if it would make a difference, and it didn't... Couldn't tell a damn bit of difference between anything.

 

[micard]

It sounds like you've not quite closed Pandora's box. Partly your message suggests you understand there is no difference: "After those trials I discarded everything about audio quality and went back to listen to Spotify over Bluetooth SBC....If you are not thinking about the quality and just „consume“ sound, it’s really not worth investing money into it, because most electronics today are on a solid level in terms of not doing massive mistakes in sound reproduction....." but that you also have a subjectivist mindset "I suck at blindtesting....many people are better than others in blindtesting and stuff....if still only subtly and more on an unconscious level".

One doesn't "suck at blindtesting". Blindtesting can be used to demonstrate that there is no audible difference between pieces of kit that are either exactly the same (two E30 DACs, for example) or audibly the same (the E30 and some other slightly inferior DAC). You wouldn't suck if you fail that test; you'd just be human. Some people would be able to tell the difference between SBC and aptX-HD. If you're one of those people, then it wouldn't be surprising that you found the quality dissatisfying. If you "suck" at the tests though, then I guess that means that you cannot tell the two formats apart, and that the dissatisfying feeling isn't you noticing, say, messy symbols or unclear vocal or whatever, but some unresolved tension about the fact that in this case there is an objective difference between the two things being tested but which you are unable to detect.

Thanks for picking it up. What I was trying to say (i was rather implying it than saying it) is that our hearing is rather unprecise BUT that doesn't mean that details don't matter. Our brains do register differences, it's just not as obvious as we'd like it to be sometimes.

Not being able to tell two different audio formats - or DAC/AMPs in this case - apart in blindtesting does NOT mean we do not hear differences. For example if you do hearing tests it becomes more obvious (to me). For the higher frequencies, starting at 10+ kHz, when you start trying to hear the sine at a very low level, sometimes you are sure you dont hear something. Raise the volume until you clearly hear it. Then slowly decrease volume to the value you started. It is there, clearly. Seconds before you could swear it is not. Try it.

Now music is a different story, it consists of ever so many different frequencies and levels at the same time, obviously impossible to tell stuff apart. It's super subjective what you hear, what details your brain focuses. Have you ever had the case where you listen to one of your favorite songs with good audio gear really concentrated and you hear slightest details you never heard before? Probably. Does it matter? Well, very subjective. There is no right or wrong. What we can mostly agree on is that to our brains it matters MUCH more what we hear than HOW we hear it. Your favorite song on your mono cell phone speaker still sounds better than some audiophile quality classical stuff if you don't like classical music.

So doesn't audio quality matter? Sure, otherwise you wouldn't be here ;-)

What is my conclusion? To me I became more sceptical of my hearing and "night and day" quality differences. Because many times they are not night and day but just ever so slight. It could still matter. And there is more to it than is obvious on the first glance... err sound

EDIT: Forgot my real conclusion to thread opener: so of course you are not doing anything wrong. You might be at the very point to open your audio Pandora's box, if you are really interested. And most of the previous answers was from kind people trying to protect you and your family from the financial disasters that loom inside that box. Just check the "What headphones do you own" thread, and calculate the average posters headphone value...

 

[ex audiophile]

I recently bought the Topping DX70 Pro, assuming it would provide superior SQ to the headphone jack on my AVM60. I was truly surprised to find that I couldn't detect a difference (660S and Focal Clear). It's hard to accept that all this wonderful hardware doesn't make much difference but I'm coming around to that conclusion. I have a Powernode 2i in one system ($900) and in the other: Node 2i/Anthem STR pre/two AHB2s bridged (>10k) and frankly I'm reluctant to compare the two blindly. My prediction is that any difference in SQ would be damn subtle