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MQA Sounds Really Good!

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Thomas savage

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Alcohol related blurring is caused by a metabolic firestorm after all the alcohol is out of your system according to an eminent researcher in the field.
Keep drinking , best advice anyone can be given.

It's the stopping that causes all the problems.
 

BillW

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I have no dog in this fight since I can't discern anything above Redbook anyway.
In general non-open proprietary formats only profit the copyright holder. There are no benefits to society or consumers individually. If the MQA people weren't seeking monopoly rent for their proprietary format they would make it open-source. That fact that they don't reveals their actual motives. So fair enough we're capitalists.
I have no idea if MQA is Snake Oil or not but just like with people afflicted with Audiophilia marketing works.
Question: What is the term "unfolding" mean in real terms? Is it really a decompression stage or some sort of manipulation phase of the audio? From what I understand MQA is lossy and uses ultrasonics somehow to contain additional information or something.

Thx,
Bill.
 

amirm

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In general non-open proprietary formats only profit the copyright holder. There are no benefits to society or consumers individually.
Open doesn't make something free. I am assuming you mean open and free. If so, I like to know if you think DVD did not benefit society. Or cable/satellite TV.
 

Blumlein 88

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I have no dog in this fight since I can't discern anything above Redbook anyway.
In general non-open proprietary formats only profit the copyright holder. There are no benefits to society or consumers individually. If the MQA people weren't seeking monopoly rent for their proprietary format they would make it open-source. That fact that they don't reveals their actual motives. So fair enough we're capitalists.
I have no idea if MQA is Snake Oil or not but just like with people afflicted with Audiophilia marketing works.
Question: What is the term "unfolding" mean in real terms? Is it really a decompression stage or some sort of manipulation phase of the audio? From what I understand MQA is lossy and uses ultrasonics somehow to contain additional information or something.

Thx,
Bill.
Frequencies between 20 khz and 40 khz are typically very low levels. Often just barely above the noise. So one could encode what is there with just a few bits. Often maybe only 4 or 5 bits. So MQA can do that, throw out all except the lowest few bits in the first ultrasonic octave, and then code them into the noise floor of the below 20 khz material. In essence fold that octave into the noise floor of the octave below it. Upon decoding it can unfold the correct values and append them to a PCM signal which only covered 20 khz to begin with and tack that onto it for full 40 khz bandwidth. So without getting more into the fine details this is what it purports to do and what it can do. Now it purports to be able to also unfold another octave and in some cases another octave. The additional unfoldings are mostly BS, and essentially upsampling of aliased material.
 

BillW

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Open doesn't make something free. I am assuming you mean open and free. If so, I like to know if you think DVD did not benefit society. Or cable/satellite TV.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly Amir. The way I read your response is a conflation of "popular" with "beneficial". I'm not sure that's what you meant though. A license fee is a tax. In economic terms that's a increase to cost base and by definition reduces output. Similarly a license is also a control restricting competition and innovation in the market place so by that definition it can be called non-beneficial to society. I recognize there are other meanings but that's where was I coming from.
The distinction of "Open doesn't make something free" puzzles me a bit as well. Sorry for that. In my view open means the freedom to use without a copyright holder demanding rent or exerting market power over the use of the item in question. For example, the number "3" is both free (as in freedom and free of cost) and open to use by all humans as they see fit. Does "free" mean something different to you in this context? Do you have an example of a format that is open but not also free? I thinking maybe something like Apache license but that doesn't seem quite right.

thanks,
Bill.
 

BillW

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Frequencies between 20 khz and 40 khz are typically very low levels. Often just barely above the noise. So one could encode what is there with just a few bits. Often maybe only 4 or 5 bits. So MQA can do that, throw out all except the lowest few bits in the first ultrasonic octave, and then code them into the noise floor of the below 20 khz material. In essence fold that octave into the noise floor of the octave below it. Upon decoding it can unfold the correct values and append them to a PCM signal which only covered 20 khz to begin with and tack that onto it for full 40 khz bandwidth. So without getting more into the fine details this is what it purports to do and what it can do. Now it purports to be able to also unfold another octave and in some cases another octave. The additional unfoldings are mostly BS, and essentially upsampling of aliased material.
Thanks for the explanation. I struggle with understanding how something can be added below a noise floor since as a lay person my mind thinks of a noise floor as solid barrier which of course it isn't ;)
I read that the purpose of MQA was really to make "hi-res" file sizes smaller for streaming. I don't know if that's accurate. It seems a clever technical feat to reduce file size and remaining true to the source material. Would not a 24/192 Flac file also accomplish the same fidelity albeit with a larger file size? Or is there something else added into MQA that makes it better?

Bill.
 

RayDunzl

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Or is there something else added into MQA that makes it better?

Deblurring

Claimed repair of temporal faults with the original ADC (as I understand the idea)
 

Blumlein 88

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Thanks for the explanation. I struggle with understanding how something can be added below a noise floor since as a lay person my mind thinks of a noise floor as solid barrier which of course it isn't ;)
I read that the purpose of MQA was really to make "hi-res" file sizes smaller for streaming. I don't know if that's accurate. It seems a clever technical feat to reduce file size and remaining true to the source material. Would not a 24/192 Flac file also accomplish the same fidelity albeit with a larger file size? Or is there something else added into MQA that makes it better?

Bill.
Well some of the lower bits are noise. There are plenty of ways to add non-noise to those bits with an algorithm that would later subtract the noise leaving the original added bit. Which then gets added into the output. So if you can do this you do reduce file size.

Actually MQA really can only claim to make a perhaps inaudibly different 24/96 file from a source no larger than redbook. You could of course do all this in 192/24 (or in fact with FLAC 96/18). The FLAC 96/18 is about the same size and has no lossy aspects and is very straight forward. Which is why MQA is a solution in search of a problem.
 

Wombat

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At what audible perception level is this normal 'blurring'? Is its claimed reduction a valid claim in practical terms of benefit?
 

BillW

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Deblurring

Claimed repair of temporal faults with the original ADC (as I understand the idea)

Thanks. I Googled a bit on deblurring and debate over whether MQA can actually repair timing faults. Regardless of the claims, a question that came to mind was many if not most of the non-junk DAC's that Amir has tested are low or low enough jitter to be sub-audible, has this problem not been solved by ADC's? Or is there something harder to do converting analog to digital vs doing the reverse? Is sampling technology behind in some way?
 

RayDunzl

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solderdude

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Well some of the lower bits are noise. There are plenty of ways to add non-noise to those bits with an algorithm that would later subtract the noise leaving the original added bit. Which then gets added into the output. So if you can do this you do reduce file size.

What I understood is that the original recording is analyzed and that the input characteristics of the used recording equipment is taken into account and corrected for. Not all tape equipment is really linear.
The original signal is recorded at 192/24 and analyzed (for bias tones etc which can also be used to 'correct' for tape speed speed variances when analysed. This can be done using a not steep filter as there isn't much that peeps out above say 90kHz in any recording anyway so no chance of aliasing.
Then that original recording is 'EQ'ed or phase corrected or other aspects that needed correction is done.
That would be the actual brilliance of the encoding side (if this is actually true).

That 'corrected' file is then cut into 3 bands.
The upper 2 bands are subsequently compressed using a lossy encoder. It can be lossy as no one can actually hear ultrasonics anyway and as Blumlein mentioned can be encoded with just a few bits.
Those smaller in amplitude and > 20kHz lossy files are then 'encoded' with an algorithm that 'sounds like white noise' but when decoded retrieves the 2 upper bands.
Now at the same time the lowest bits of the 'improved' master are removed.
This could be either truncated or, what I would have done if I designed the codec, dithered so to get a larger dynamic range beyond the amount of remaining bits. This is part not lossy, execpt for the obvious bit reduction but audibly not so much because of dithering.
This result is encoded in the upper bits. As it is digital there is no noise... just bits so it will only work in the digital signal and won't work anymore when one would decode it with a non MQA DAC and then record the analog signal again as noise would have f'ed up the > 20kHz unfold.

Anyway the lowest bits get the 'disguised as noise by an algorithm' and this is encoded in the lower, removed bits.
So not added within noise but granted in most recordings those bits would contain mostly noise anyway.

This is the 'clever' part of restricting the bandwidth to 44.1 or 48kHz while keeping the same amount of bits.
Bob could easily not remove the lowest bits of the original and simply do 44.1/20 bits or 48/30 bits as the digital signal but most DACs would not recognize the signal or not truncate correctly so it would not play which would be an obvious DRM.
So they had to remove the less important bits < 20kHz in order to let MQA play on normal DACs.

Now if the processing at the encoding side indeed takes place then the not unfolded recording may well sound 'better' because of the processing but has a slightly higher noise floor.

The first 'unfold' is done with software where they extract and decode the unfolded frequencies and then simply 'paste' the first folded band to the lower bit < 20kHz but (dithered ?) signal and so one gets 'improved (in the encoding process), not steep filtered' 0-40kHz signal in return. The highest band is not used unless one has a hardware decoder as well which 'pastes' the highest band as well to the first unfolded signal.

If this is really how MQA works I can easily see the technical brilliance of it and may actually have better 'master' because of the processing at the encoding stage.

Now the part where it becomes 'tricky'. That first 'sampling and correcting' the 24/192 recording could easily be distributed and simply sold as improved master quality recording lets call this IMQ. But that could be illegally copied/ripped etc. They could only ask the studios money for improving the master.
So the encoding bit with last unfold NOT being free but paid for with a license and the 'correct' filters being used which are similar to the used anti-aliasing at the encoder side is what lets Bob get paid for each DAC/license.

Now to the point Blumlein made about the last unfold. The 192 kHz will appeal to those believing such is needed because they have been told that they can secrectly hear ultrasonics above 40kHz when it is harmonically related. These folks will buy the MQA DAC to ensure they are not missing out on the inaudible goodness.

I would say the unfold is already not necessary for the sake of >20kHz but 88.2/96kHz is good enough and at least the 'noise encoded' higher frequencies are not 'noise' anymore but ultrasonics.
So.. I would say just use a normal DAC unfold it for free to 96kHz and if you want to see the 192kHz light on your DAC and use a slow filter then by all means upsample to 192kHz or even higher !
It won't sound worse than the first unfold anyway as there is no useful info anyway.

But I could be wrong in this and is just a scam. Personally I would like to think that the technique used is rather clever... the audible benefits would ONLY be because of that first stage (if that actually is done) but this would benefit even non un-folders and certainly software first unfolders for free.
 

audio_tony

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Veering ever so slightly off topic, but the method used by MQA as described above is ringing some (very) distant bells for me.
For some reason, something to do with Betamax video springs to mind, but as I learnt about that some 35 years ago this could just be an artefact of my memory!
The recollection I have is something of comb filtering and other techniques to reduce noise - but essentially a frequency 'shift' if you like.
Sorry for the off topic - but I figured if I mentioned it, someone else may have an idea of what I'm talking about!
 

digicidal

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Please correct where this is incorrect in the "for(ish)" argument:
1) If you accept for-profit, proprietary licensing and format standards in media like DVD and BR you shouldn't have a problem with MQA.
2) If you don't take (or are incapable of taking) an active role in stopping or reversing it - you shouldn't have a complaint/opinion about it.
3) It doesn't do much/any audible harm, and the costs are distributed in most cases - so it's "much ado about nothing".

Now consider the above in relation to the recent ISO-DAC review conclusion:
...
And it is not like you get pride of ownership in having this unit. It comes in a non-descriptive and cheap box and power supply which gives you no joy. After the initial false conclusion wears off that "it sounds better" you are left with an ugly black box and hundreds of dollars out of your pocketbook.

To be bluntly clear, there is not one area of performance here that shows excellent engineering. All the paper talk on their website is just that: talk. Not one measurement are provided for things like noise and jitter which we can readily measure. As far as I can tell, it is an exercise to lego-build mythical ideas in audiophile world by non-technical people of this and that mattering. In reality the ISO DAC actually performs worse, not better.

Please stay away from such products. I don't know how to say it more simply. Save money by buying transparent DACs that don't add a heap of distortion on top of your music. And use the rest of the savings for good food, music or other useful things in life with your loved ones.

Note that I don't disagree in any way with the conclusions reached for that DAC. I just see those same arguments as being directly applicable to MQA as well to a large extent.
 

scooter

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Upcoming Ztella USB-C/3.5mm DAC dongle has MQA version too but it's only "renderer", not a full decoder.
I'm curious, when the first unfold is done by software and the second by MQA renderer, is it the same final result (full resolution) as it could be obtained by full decoder?
 

LuckyLuke575

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Because it makes a blue light come on and that blue light tells me the artist sees me and I'm having a authentic experience.
Some people are willing to pay top dollar for that.
 
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