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MQA Sounds Really Good!

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digicidal

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Putting aside the ridiculousness of thinking MQA licensing costs remotely like that (I can imaging LG paying such fees on their phones!), MQA solves a market problem. It is called differentiation.
Differentiation can easily be mistaken for restriction in practice... especially where synthetic profits are concerned. And no I don't think MQA licensing costs manufacturers that much... I know it costs me that much (in this particular case). I don't believe that minute adjustments in oil production in Saudi Arabia necessitate the cost of fuel to me increasing by a proportionally greater amount... but it does - because I don't have any control of what the refiners, commodity speculators, and retailers charge each other and pass along to me. I just have to pay the increase if I wish to continue driving my car.

I don't think that simply adding full MQA decoding cost Matrix that much (or even a moderate percentage of it)... but the fact remains that the two versions of the exact same device - with no other differences - are that disparate in pricing. Your "problem" that MQA solves isn't one for the consumer - it's one for a single company... MQA. As far as audio is concerned, it's as useful as a Shakti Stone is at improving horsepower or lifting audio veils.
 

amirm

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Your "problem" that MQA solves isn't one for the consumer - it's one for a single company... MQA.
Once again no. It provides differentiation for many companies from Tidal to SMSL. No different that Atmos Logo on my Samsung Tablet.

dolby-atmos-hero.jpg


There are plenty of alternative sources of virtual surround. They use and pay Dolby royalties to get better differentiation.
 

digicidal

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So you're saying that Tidal and SMSL had no way of providing higher quality audio to the consumer before MQA? Interesting. Yep stereo speakers with "Dolby Atmos surround sound" is a perfect analog. I'm sure it would be a simple matter to prove that the result is a significant increase in audio quality and immersion from the consumer's standpoint. :facepalm:

Here's a really simple question: without considering anything other than audio fidelity... what does MQA do that can't be done any other way? In other words, what do you feel the open-source community would need to provide that isn't currently available in order to compete with MQA?
 
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March Audio

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Support? I don't support MQA. I use it. What I am doing here is stopping people with who knows what agenda create falsehoods around it. .

I don't think there is any falsehood about the idea that MQA was an attempt to monotise music distribution. A land grab.

I don't think there is any falsehood about the idea that the consumer has to buy new hardware to fully support the format.

I don't think there is any falsehood about the idea that it provides no benefit to the consumer.

I don't think there is any falsehood about the idea that it has never been allowed to be properly third party tested to validate its technical, objective and subjective claims and efficacy.

Is it going to take over the world. Nope. However I suspect that is partly due to the fact that people have been noisy about its lack of technical/consumer benefit credibility. There is no doubt that costs of licencing and or its implementation do get rolled into the cost of products even if we don't know specifics.
 

March Audio

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Once again no. It provides differentiation for many companies from Tidal to SMSL. No different that Atmos Logo on my Samsung Tablet.

dolby-atmos-hero.jpg


There are plenty of alternative sources of virtual surround. They use and pay Dolby royalties to get better differentiation.

But at least Dolby at atmos actually does something ;)
 

digicidal

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I don't have Atmos on my Samsung Galaxy tablet, neither MQA; what does it make me? :D
Smart? Free? Better? I'd say take your pick or go with all three! :D
 

digicidal

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But at least Dolby at atmos actually does something ;)
With discrete speakers it does... in this case all it does is reduce the fidelity of stereo source material by synthesizing virtual channels via DSP - and I'm not convinced it does that any better than SRS or the generic volumetric/delay filters available for free in your average Realtek chipset.

However, the "solution" @amirm is proposing it represents, is that it helps delude consumers into believing it's better because it has another logo on it's packaging and in it's tearsheet - which I agree it undoubtedly does. I'm far less clear on how I should celebrate that as a consumer.

If I was a manufacturer who was incapable of producing anything objectively better than my competition, but was willing to cover my products with logos and pay licensing for the same... then I would probably see a ton of value in slapping a MQA logo on there as well.
 

amirm

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So you're saying that Tidal and SMSL had no way of providing higher quality audio to the consumer before MQA?
What? No, I said that they wanted to differentiate their products from others so they opted to adopt MQA. And they will benefit from to some extent as opposed to MQA being the only one that would as you said.
 

amirm

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I don't think there is any falsehood about the idea that the consumer has to buy new hardware to fully support the format.
Both Tidal and Roon support MQA without buying new hardware. They don't do the final upsample to 192 kHz. So a bit was left for hardware guys to hang their hat on. This is on top of the fact that the baseline format in in the clear requiring no decoder at all. So yes, your statement is a falsehood.
 

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I don't think there is any falsehood about the idea that it provides no benefit to the consumer.
What does high sample rate do on a DAC? Or DSD support? If nothing, why is there no protest against the adoption of those features if it is something bad?

MQA says, if there is value to high-res, let me provide it to you in a different way. Whatever blame there is in audibility of MQA, relates just as well to high-res. I am not seeing people protesting against Amazon offerning HD content.

Fact is that high-res content exists and there is some amount of consumer demand for it. In the clear high-res targets that market, so does MQA. Consumers can and are choosing which one they want.

The cat is out of the bag on high-res guys. It is there. Labels create such content every day and release them to consumers. I don't see the point of trying to stop that, whether it is as is, or through MQA. It is a tiny bit of luxury in audio content distribution.
 

amirm

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A quick note guys: there are other fora where such cat fights are encouraged because they bring advertising dollars. Here, more posts just costs me in server costs. :) You all want to lose sleep on MQA, go right ahead. I have said that your efforts have been fruitless and become more so every day. If you want to use up your intellectual capital this way, go ahead. I know I am tired of explaining why it doesn't matter....
 

digicidal

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What? No, I said that they wanted to differentiate their products from others so they opted to adopt MQA. And they will benefit from to some extent as opposed to MQA being the only one that would as you said.

You make my point. This has nothing to do with providing higher quality sound. As far as the differentiation which supposedly sets them apart... no, they pay MQA (and pass those costs along)... then their competitors do as well... and the arms race continues. However, that very temporary advantage for the early adopters in this example still does nothing to improve quality.

A quick note guys: there are other fora where such cat fights are encouraged because they bring advertising dollars. Here, more posts just costs me in server costs. :) You all want to lose sleep on MQA, go right ahead. I have said that your efforts have been fruitless and become more so every day. If you want to use up your intellectual capital this way, go ahead. I know I am tired of explaining why it doesn't matter....

Yet you still haven't answered the question of what MQA objectively improves as far as audio quality is concerned, nor what it provides at all that the open-source alternatives don't - for the consumer. We're all aware of what it provides as far as MQA (revenue & IP value), and the theoretical advantages to manufacturers (differentiation through special "certifications"). What other than synthetic profits does it provide that's an improvement to the alternatives? How is this different than some amorphous "professional organization" which are common profit centers in other markets (notably law and medicine), but which do not actually promote or improve performance, nor even certify competence in any way?

EDIT: OK, you did...nothing. So in this case it's fine to market a "nothing burger" but in other cases it's something the manufacturer should be called out on because they are deceptive in their marketing by missing a couple specifications while still providing audible transparency. I guess if they simply said things like "competitors give you 10% of your music... while we give you 100% of it" (MQA's words not mine) we could just agree they are doing no harm regardless of how dishonest such claims might be. :facepalm: After all, they're just differentiating their products.
 
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amirm

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Yet you still haven't answered the question of what MQA objectively improves as far as audio quality is concerned, nor what it provides at all that the open-source alternatives don't - for the consumer.
Why is it my job to answer that question? I didn't tell you go and buy MQA because it improves your life. I have said don't say things about it that are flat out wrong. That it has DRM. That it is taking over the world. That labels want DRM and will get it through MQA. That they will then stop releasing all in the clear content.

In this forum we go by what we can prove. Yet you all keep spreading misinformation you can't remotely prove. Let's stop that. Go to other fora with that argument if you want to say things where no one knows any better, or worse yet benefits from continued bickering.

And what if MQA sounds better? I thought your beef was with everything else it does regardless of merit.
 

digicidal

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Why is it my job to answer that question? I didn't tell you go and buy MQA because it improves your life. I have said don't say things about it that are flat out wrong. That it has DRM. That it is taking over the world. That labels want DRM and will get it through MQA. That they will then stop releasing all in the clear content.

In this forum we go by what we can prove. Yet you all keep spreading misinformation you can't remotely prove. Let's stop that. Go to other fora with that argument if you want to say things where no one knows any better, or worse yet benefits from continued bickering.

And what if MQA sounds better? I thought your beef was with everything else it does regardless of merit.
Not mine at all. My beef is entirely that it doesn't do anything (useful), and it has no obvious merit (to me as a consumer) - and yet I have to pay for it in the form of higher prices for components looking to "join the club" (or at least not exclude the deluded). I didn't bring up DRM... at all. What I simply stated was that it was increasing costs (through requisite licensing) to the consumer, and that it was needlessly proprietary - all while using highly deceptive marketing which indicated that any other format was less "accurate and transparent" while not providing any proof of that. I initially believed that DRM would be a part of it, but I do not any longer - because of proof to the contrary. ;)

The concern I have that is DRM(ish) - while not actually being a form of DRM - is simply that without provenance certification - which is quite likely to increase the costs of the music itself eventually, or at least exclude some independent labels from promoting some artists/works fully. I completely admit and have stated in the past that I don't have "proof" this will happen - because I can't time travel... but it's happened in other markets, and I could easily see it happening here as well. But whatever, that's an aside and not a primary concern of mine at all.

I also never said that it was taking over the world or anything even close to that. I merely stated a concern and complaint (which I have about all closed standards, not just this one) that it was a means of restricting choice while not providing any meaningful "compensation" for that - i.e. higher resolution, smaller file sizes, broader compatibility of devices, etc. Actually the facts are that it does none of these things.

The only reason you need to answer the question is because you keep saying no one should have a negative comment/expectation/impression of MQA as a file format, a business model, or anything else. The justifications change from "it's a non-issue" to "it helps sales somewhat for those that participate" to "you do it anyway in other things" to "open-source community failed to provide equivalent alternatives" - but never simply "it's better because...".

If the answer were "there is simply no way to get sound this accurate to the source other than MQA format and full unpacking" - then not only would I not have any problems with it... I'd support them directly and intentionally as helping to improve audio reproduction and playback technology. As long as there is absolutely no provable benefit at all... then I can't possibly see it as different from exotic power cables, brilliant pebbles, etc. - but I don't hear any defenses of those. Not that I would want you to, just saying if "nothing burgers" are truly that... why bother proving it anywhere at all.

EDIT - Removed the bit about authorized hardware and software... apparently as long as you're willing to "certify authenticity" (at unknown cost if any) as the studio - you can get MQA Studio authorization - regardless of what equipment was used in the chain.
 
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March Audio

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Both Tidal and Roon support MQA without buying new hardware. They don't do the final upsample to 192 kHz. So a bit was left for hardware guys to hang their hat on. This is on top of the fact that the baseline format in in the clear requiring no decoder at all. So yes, your statement is a falsehood.
Which is why I said "fully" support.
 

March Audio

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What does high sample rate do on a DAC? Or DSD support? If nothing, why is there no protest against the adoption of those features if it is something bad?

.

Actually many people (and that includes me) think that high sample rate has very little or no benefit.

It is bad if it misleads people into thinking there is benefit where there is none.....and then charges them a premium for the privilege.
 

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The only reason you need to answer the question is because you keep saying no one should have a negative comment/expectation/impression of MQA as a file format, a business model, or anything else.
I didn't say you can't have a negative opinion. I say don't state things that are wrong as a matter of how the industry works. And how consumers behave.
 

amirm

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Actually many people (and that includes me) think that high sample rate has very little or no benefit.
Where would I read about the street riots you have participated in similar to MQA? And what your call to action be? Make it illegal to create, distribute and consumer high-resolution audio?

How far does this argument go? Should we set SINAD of 50 dB as the limit too?
 

amirm

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My beef is entirely that it doesn't do anything (useful), and it has no obvious merit (to me as a consumer) - and yet I have to pay for it in the form of higher prices for components looking to "join the club" (or at least not exclude the deluded).
MPEG-2 video codec has no merit to me yet I have had to pay for it dozens of times to get content encoded in other formats. So? That is life in format making and consumer electronics. Companies are not in charity business. They all like to make money. Since you buy all of their products, your protests sound hollow with respect to MQA.

Fortunately, in the case of MQA unlike MPEG-2, you can readily avoid any royalties by buying the vast majority of products that don't support it. We don't have that choice in phones. We all pay royalties for voice codecs in phones that have not been used since 1G days.

There is no other area of our industry more polluted by IP claims and litigation to collect money. Here is one that I was slightly associated with:

1573445381199.png


1.3 Billion dollars for an MP3 patent. And you want me to cry over MQA? Our co-defendant in that suit were Dell, Apple, HP, etc. by the way. These guys sue everyone they can and collect eventually in the dark of the night since it is so expensive to litigate.

MQA is nothing. It hasn't been anything. It won't be anything. Get on with your lives people. Don't become part of some online movement which has accomplished nothing.
 
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