Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Emlin]

Seriously do you think a real audiophile will believe this SINAD measurements thing?
You cannot measure how an audio device sounds!
A true audiophile knows the 2nd rule of audiophiles: Do NOT buy by measurements.
But I have to admit that if an audiophile is trolling here, that is not okay at all.

It is well known amongst the audiophile community that bits are not just bits. This is because the bits in music are emotional and the bits in, say, a spreadsheet are not. Therefore, they argue, the musical bits need to be handled with more care than the emotionless spreadsheet bits, lest they get upset and fail to lift their emotional veil.

 

[watchnerd]

It is well known amongst the audiophile community that bits are not just bits. This is because the bits in music are emotional and the bits in, say, a spreadsheet are not. Therefore, they argue, the musical bits need to be handled with more care than the emotionless spreadsheet bits, lest they get upset and fail to lift their emotional veil.

No no no

(and I say this as an owner of both a turntable and reel to reel decks, so I'm allowed throw shade on my own tribe)

The correct audiophile response is:

Who cares -- bits are just subsets of the infinite sampling rate that is analog. Digital stair steps can never recreate true analog waveforms.

 

[Robin L]

Oh, yeah, if we're just counting random odds and ends, I definitely have a box.

I assumed it meant expensive cables for the purpose of system sound seasoning.

Also DIY experiments for sonic sonic seasoning.
As you have turntables, there have to be other boxes checked. And let's not get started with R to R tape, shall we?

 

[MattHooper]

Ten Signs that you may be suffering from Audiophilus Nervosa, the neurotic behavior of the self-described "Audiophile":

#1: You have a box full of line level interconnects but can only use two pair at any given time.
#2: You have multiple LP copies of the same title, being wrapped up in the search for "The Perfect Copy".
#3: You have, at one time or another, used a green marker on your CDs or attached "rings" to said CDs, and can hear the difference.
#4: You have adjusted VTA on your tonearm so many times, you have worn out the screws.
#5: You are "into" swapping tubes.
#6: You have "Upgraded" your electronic gear with "High-End" passive parts.
#7: You have a re-clocking device between your digital source and your DAC, and the DAC set you back $10,000.00
#8: There are scratch marks all over your floor from constantly re-positioning your heavy floorstanding speakers.
#9: You KNOW LPs sound better.
#10: You get into a pointless argument on ASR and then get blocked.

I scored 1 out of 10.

I have a box full of line level interconnects - used for old gear I no longer have, but keep them around in case I need another pair, which often comes in handy.

And I still consider myself an audiophile.

 

[Robin L]

I scored 1 out of 10.

I have a box full of line level interconnects - used for old gear I no longer have, but keep them around in case I need another pair, which often comes in handy.

And I still consider myself an audiophile.

I'm sure your day job makes up for it.

 

[aarmath]

This rings true for me. I am eternally grateful that I came across this site when I did. I was never going to have lots of money available for a full headphone listening upgrade and so I thought I'd have to settle for an underperforming system. How wrong I was.

I hate to think of people wasting money that they haven't got, or money that could be spent on providing for their family and friends in these difficult times.

Of course people are free to spend their money on whatever they like, but at least this site gives them unbiased, rational and scientific assistance!

Bang-on right mate. This site actually does quite a bit more - Give confidence to folks like us to not fall for the borderline lies and unnecessary junk (apparently in this day and age "Jitter" is still an "issue." LOL) peddled by Youtube reviewers & the likes. ASR has definitely empowered me to call a spade a spade. No wonder, my fellow music enthusiasts on local forums hate me.
Especially when I tell them that a Crown XLS 1502 with a Parasound Zpre3 preamp is a great starter kit for serious audio listening. And Billy Jean cables are the best quality interconnects.

They really hate me.

 

[magicscreen]

Who cares -- bits are just subsets of the infinite sampling rate that is analog. Digital stair steps can never recreate true analog waveforms.

Yes, unfortunately this is true.
But technology becomes more advanced, for example here a high quality DAC:
Doge 7

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Yes, unfortunately this is true.
But technology becomes more advanced, for example here a high quality DAC:
Doge 7

or here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-e30-dac-review.12119/

 

[dfuller]

The correct audiophile response is:

Who cares -- bits are just subsets of the infinite sampling rate that is analog. Digital stair steps can never recreate true analog waveforms.

And why am I unsurprised that audiophiles totally misunderstand how digital audio works? DACs work more or less by differential calculus to my understanding.

 

[NgtFlyer]

No no no

The correct audiophile response is:

Who cares -- bits are just subsets of the infinite sampling rate that is analog. Digital stair steps can never recreate true analog waveforms.

Because these people have no idea what oversampling and filtering does - converts those "stair steps" to waveforms.

 

[watchnerd]

Because these people have no idea what oversampling and filtering does - converts those "stair steps" to waveforms.

To be fair, it didn't help matters when Sony started perpetuating the misconceptions in their DSD marketing literature with lots of scientific looking graphs that seemed to say the same and that the higher sampling rate of DSD was more 'analog'.

 

[egellings]

Differential calculus? No wonder know one can figger it out.

 

[watchnerd]

Differential calculus? No wonder know one can figger it out.

It would all have been fixed if they used lollipop graphs.

 

[Pdxwayne]

No wonder the OP care so much about my thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ktb-vs-topping-e30-listening-tests.17988/

Do tell, OP, about the number of DAC and speakers setup chains that you have done double blind teats so far?

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

No wonder the OP care so much about my thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ktb-vs-topping-e30-listening-tests.17988/

Do tell, OP, about the number of DAC and speakers setup chains that you have done double blind teats so far?

lol. none. You should continue reading the thread...I have a few follow-up posts that might be relevant to your concern. I do own a few different dacs though (a Topping D10, topping E30, Fiio E10k, a couple Iphone dongles) which I note no particular sonic differences between so I've never felt the need to dbl blind test them.

This isn't why I "care so much" about your thread though. I care about your thread because you claimed to have heard things that I don't think you actually heard (that being "better detail retrieval" from the KTB than the E30). Then, it turned out that you probably hadn't actually heard the things you claimed to have heard. No big whoop.

 

[Pdxwayne]

lol. none. You should continue reading the thread...I have a few follow-up posts that might be relevant to your concern. I do own a few different dacs though (a Topping D10, topping E30, Fiio E10k, a couple Iphone dongles) which I note no particular sonic differences between so I've never felt the need to dbl blind test them.

This isn't why I "care so much" about your thread though. I care about your thread because you claimed to have heard things that I don't think you actually heard (that being "better detail retrieval" from the KTB than the E30). Then, it turned out that you probably hadn't actually heard the things you claimed to have heard. No big whoop.

So not even single blind test? Your listening chain please? Headphones? Speakers? Amps?

I heard the differences just fine before I started my thread. It was just not apple to apple comparisons as I already mentioned in my thread.
It was not fair to E30 as I listened to it only via a $150 headphones briefly once I got it. On the other hand, I listened to KTB (before firmware update) mostly with top of the line bookshelf speakers from Paradigm, with much better distortion numbers over 2Khz than the headphones.

I realized what I did wrong and thus I created my thread to track my apple to apple comparisons.

So far, with $150 headphones, even my son have problem distinguish which is which. With top of the line speakers, my son and daughter easily distinguished which is sharper with one electronica song with lots of high notes. I do plan for more listening tests in the coming weeks....

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

So not even single blind test? Your listening chain please? Headphones? Speakers? Amps?

I heard the differences just fine before I started my thread. It was just not apple to apple comparisons as I already mentioned in my thread.
It was not fair to E30 as I listened to it only via a $150 headphones briefly once I got it. On the other hand, I listened to KTB (before firmware update) mostly with top of the line bookshelf speakers from Paradigm, with much better distortion numbers over 2Khz than the headphones.

I realized what I did wrong and thus I created my thread to track my apple to apple comparisons.

So far, with $150 headphones, even my son have problem distinguish which is which. With top of the line speakers, my son and daughter easily distinguished which is sharper with one electronica song with lots of high notes. I do plan for more listening tests in the coming weeks....

Perhaps this could be carried back over to your own thread there? Not too sure what it has to do with this little fun thread...

But I guess if you're gonna throw down the classic "if you can't hear the difference your gear must not be good enough" then sure, I'll run down my rigs...

Headphones - right now it's laptop to E30 to Schiit Heresy to Hifiman HE400i headphones

Speakers - Laptop, D10, Yamaha amp to Elac DBR62 speakers.

I've done various blind tests over the years, just not dacs. Never claimed I had.

(oh btw, this thread wasn't inspired by you or your posts in the E30 thread. It was prior to that...just in case that needed to be clarified.)

 

[Pdxwayne]

Perhaps this could be carried back over to your own thread there? Not too sure what it has to do with this little fun thread...

But I guess if you're gonna throw down the classic "if you can't hear the difference your gear must not be good enough" then sure, I'll run down my rigs...

Headphones - right now it's laptop to E30 to Schiit Heresy to Hifiman HE400i headphones

Speakers - Laptop, D10, Yamaha amp to Elac DBR62 speakers.

I've done various blind tests over the years, just not dacs. Never claimed I had.

Your own words in your first post:
....And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! .....

You boldly add this big section in your original post, yet you have done no DAC comparison tests. I did my own apple to apple listening tests and my findings so far contradict your claim. So yeah, my post in your thread is relevant. It is to call you out to do your own scientific tests to support your claim. : P

BTW, your speakers distortions is much higher than mine in the highs.....So not even sure if you would hear a difference when doing DAC comparisons with speakers.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Your own words in your first post:
....And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! .....

You boldly add this big section in your original post, yet you have done no DAC comparison tests. I did my own apple to apple listening tests and my findings so far contradict your claim. So yeah, my post in your thread is relevant. It is to call you out to do your own scientific tests to support your claim. : P

BTW, your speakers distortions is much higher than mine in the highs.....So not even sure if you would hear a difference when doing DAC comparisons with speakers.

yeesh. Personally, if I were doing this comparison I'd use headphones anyway, but the DBR's are pretty good speakers my friend. But again, for me this was never about hearing one as "sharper" than the other. Your test thread morphed into that. My original issue was the idea that the KTB retrieved more detail than the E30. The E30 measures excellently. I doubt there's any detail not being retrieved. You referred to something pretty specific...footsteps or something in a recording. Now though it's a moot point because it really doesn't sound like the comparison was particularly valid anyway. Comparing one dac on headphones to another dac on speakers isn't particularly reliable.

The issue with dacs is that most of them measure so good now that hearing audible differences is hard to imagine and claims of doing so (specifically around ASR which was the point of my OP here) is likely to draw attention.

 

[Pdxwayne]

yeesh. Personally, if I were doing this comparison I'd use headphones anyway, but the DBR's are pretty good speakers my friend. But again, for me this was never about hearing one as "sharper" than the other. Your test thread morphed into that. My original issue was the idea the the KTB retrieved more detail than the E30. The E30 measures excellently. I doubt there's any detail not being retrieved. You referred to something pretty specific...footsteps or something in a recording. Now though it's a mot point because it really doesn't sound like the comparison was particularly valid anyway. Comparing one dac on headphones to another dac on speakers isn't particularly reliable.

You are correct, original impressions was not really valid.

However, in my thread, I have done apple to apple comparisons:

Headphones with both DAC first.

A week or so later, speakers with both DAC.

Speakers with both DAC revealed the differences.