Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Robin L]

I'm quite proud that my article in Linear Audio a decade or so ago was (I think) the first to connect the non-audiophile wife in the next room and the mathematical horse. But note what the cue was for my disillusionment- not body language, but choice of music.

As the wise philosopher Alvarado asked,“What is reality?”

See also:

"That's metaphysically absurd!
How can I know what you hear?"

[edit]

Remember: Trust your ears, but don’t trust your lying brain!
Think twice before you think!

 

[SIY]

As the wise philosopher Alvarado asked,“What is reality?”

Eat it!

(I knew someone would get the reference)

 

[levimax]

What a nice article! You had me when I read that you mentioned your lying brain!. I have said that on ASR numerous times. It was a great article for "regular Joes" to read and learn from. So much of it matched my little bit of experience perfectly. The visual/audio cues or tells are especially important for anyone trying to do an at home test with friends. Well, there is a lot to be considered but it also depends on what the test is for. My experience back in the pre-historic era was started out to find out if a change was audible. We kept hitting a wall time and time again. No matter what we changed EXCEPT for speakers, no one could tell any difference even though they claimed they could EASILY and you would have to be deaf to not hear the massive change. Well, after our listeners not being able to tell any changes, we reverted to changing the entire system except for the speakers. Still nothing, then we put crazy (engineering wise) interconnects and speaker wire in, I mean crazy bad. Thinking now we have messed up the system enough that it "should" make an audible difference. Well, still nothing. We found out by just testing and seeing where it lead too. We were all shocked at how little was audible! Mr. Bose wasn't a decade later! Our final conclusion and it still holds in production today, that the speakers are by far the most important item and that everything before the speakers is not all that critical. In other words a clean signal output is a clean signal output. If your electronics don't mess it up, it will be good to go.

This sprang from car audio testing, but morphed into home audio testing too. So, the manufacturers were ready to spend OMG! big bucks and get into exotic high end stereo systems in cars but all the testing showed them to not waste the money. Even today not much has changed in the big picture. These engineers went nuts designing and prototyping serious amazing high end stuff for cars. The results in different areas was truly amazing. Such as an early version of a simulated object audio in a car, mini-Magnepans, mini ribbon speakers. They were at the bleeding edge of audio at that time and were a pretty humble bunch. No egos got in the way. Just more old memories for a guy that says "Remember? Hell, I was there!". I kept my young mouth shut, watched and learned. So much research that never gets to market that is unbelievable.

+1
I went to the trouble (it is a bit of a project) of setting up a double blind test between a 60 year old tube amp and a brand new SOTA SS amp and was amazed I could not tell them apart. It is easy to read about people doing double blind tests and accepting that they are valid but actually doing it yourself is an amazing experience that should not be missed if you are serious about the recorded music hobby. It will scramble your brain and open your eyes and set you free from all the BS.... and focus your attention on your speakers and room.

 

[Robin L]

Eat it!

(I knew someone would get the reference)

"That's the spirit!"

[Listened to Radio Free Oz back in the day].

 

[Newman]

…I am not ready to declare I know everything, we can shut down research, fire all the scientists, kill the patent office because what we know is perfect. If you do, fine, you need not be in the discussion anyway as you have nothing to contribute or take away. Sorry. I hope to not quit learning until my last breath….

I, too, hope never to quit learning. However, the straw men you have erected to misrepresent the views of others are offensive. Calm down.

But if you want to learn about how sound waves sound, the listening tests have to be valid for that purpose, which rules out sighted listening, because it allows non-sonic factors to dominate the perception of sound. Try learning that before your last breath.

The rest of your long post is largely about your sighted listening experiences. Which is fine for making your personal gear choices: after all, when we finally get around to listening to music instead of gear, we are always doing it sighted. So, if your imagination is creating a sonic impression that makes DAC A preferable to DAC B, then by all means pick DAC A. In fact, I recommend it.

BUT, don’t kid yourself, or try to tell us, that new measurements are needed to validate the sighted listening impressions you are having, when they are dominated by non-sonic factors. We can‘t measure in the air something that isn’t originating in the air.

cheers

 

[tvrgeek]

I have a question: For all of those who believe no one, not just you, but no one else, can hear any difference in an amp or DAC, why are you here? Would you not have gone to Best Buy and bought whatever was cheapest with the features you want? All the same right? Or do you believe at some point, the differences get small enough that you can't hear them, so you believe no one else can?

Some of us do hear a difference. Probably not all. We do not have to prove it, and you do not have to disprove it. The question is what is different, can we measure it, and can it help to make a purchase decision? That is the only reason to be on this forum. I believe there is some point, if the tests were inclusive enough, where all would not hear a difference. I want to know what that set of parameters is. If it is different for everyone, highly likely, and you could figure out your threshold, then you have simple price shopping for above that threshold.

If you have been in a blind ABX of amplifiers, you would know many do sound identical, some differ. Of those that differ, the untrained invariably prefers those with a little more distortion. Ones with a lot do usually come up as failures. Why? How much? Can we quantify it? With a simple THD number, we are not considering preference for even or odd order, lower throughout or higher low order tapering off quicker but producing the same THD + N number. Measurable. Audible, by at least some of us. The speaker load can effect the amplifiers distortion or not by an order of magnitude. Also measurable. Is that taken into account? FWIW, the tests I sat in on were so long ago, differences in amps were a lot greater. There are quite a few today I suspect are all good enough for everyone unless there is an additional personal filter favoring one distortion over another or lack of any. Again, can we quantify it?

 

[MarkS]

I am here for the reviews and discussions of the stuff that matters: speakers, room treatments, DSP.

And I do indeed just buy the cheapest available electronics with the features I want from Best Buy.

 

[rdenney]

I have a question: For all of those who believe no one, not just you, but no one else, can hear any difference in an amp or DAC, why are you here? Would you not have gone to Best Buy and bought whatever was cheapest with the features you want? All the same right? Or do you believe at some point, the differences get small enough that you can't hear them, so you believe no one else can?

Some of us do hear a difference. Probably not all. We do not have to prove it, and you do not have to disprove it. The question is what is different, can we measure it, and can it help to make a purchase decision? That is the only reason to be on this forum. I believe there is some point, if the tests were inclusive enough, where all would not hear a difference. I want to know what that set of parameters is. If it is different for everyone, highly likely, and you could figure out your threshold, then you have simple price shopping for above that threshold.

If you have been in a blind ABX of amplifiers, you would know many do sound identical, some differ. Of those that differ, the untrained invariably prefers those with a little more distortion. Ones with a lot do usually come up as failures. Why? How much? Can we quantify it? With a simple THD number, we are not considering preference for even or odd order, lower throughout or higher low order tapering off quicker but producing the same THD + N number. Measurable. Audible, by at least some of us. The speaker load can effect the amplifiers distortion or not by an order of magnitude. Also measurable. Is that taken into account? FWIW, the tests I sat in on were so long ago, differences in amps were a lot greater. There are quite a few today I suspect are all good enough for everyone unless there is an additional personal filter favoring one distortion over another or lack of any. Again, can we quantify it?

I suppose my post didn't get on your reading list.

Nobody has claimed that the worst DACs sound as good as the best DACs. The claim is that DACs that measure well enough to be effectively transparent cannot be distinguished, when used within the operating envelope tested. There are certainly DACs out there that do not test to be audibly transparent. The limits of audibility have been discussed here, and there is even a sticky thread that summarizes the topic. The range is substantial, from as little as 70 dB SINAD to as much as 115 dB. Note that even expert listeners, in blind testing, must engage special listening tactics (choice of material, extreme gain-riding during quiet bits, etc.) to detect even a difference at the higher end of that range, say, over 95 or 100 dB. In now way can those differences be as obvious as the story you tell. Frankly, I can't hear differences in distortion below -40 dB when listening in headphones. I probably couldn't do that well with speakers. And hearing differences at -40 dB requires many trials and exhausting levels of focus to detect.

So, when you say your wife heard an obvious difference from the next room, frankly nobody believes you.

They would believe it possible if there was a serious defect in the setup or equipment, but you seem resolutely resistant to demonstrating that you've really gone through all that to be sure.

Stated another way, when you say you have to turn down the 3 KHz slider on an EQ to make the sound tolerable, you are describing a change in frequency response that can obviously be measured. Something screwed that response up in the first place. If the DAC was actually creating a spurious sound that needed to be turned down to make it tolerable (meaning: language suggesting a large change, not a mere subtlety), then it would glow in the dark in measurements we make right now, which include distortion (of various types) with respect to frequency, and linearity with respect to frequency. Lots of people have used that Topping DAC with no apparent ability to distinguish it from any others, so even the experts here must have tin ears for it to be so obvious to you.

Seriously, you can't see the disconnect in that?

Now, go back and figure out what was wrong with your setup.

Rick "the burden is on the challenger" Denney

 

[levimax]

I have a question: For all of those who believe no one, not just you, but no one else, can hear any difference in an amp or DAC, why are you here? Would you not have gone to Best Buy and bought whatever was cheapest with the features you want? All the same right? Or do you believe at some point, the differences get small enough that you can't hear them, so you believe no one else can?

I have experience with both controlled and sighted listening tests and I have some idea of what I can and can't hear and I have no doubt that some people can hear better than I can. I am also interested in what other people can and can't hear out of general interest. However if someone makes a claim that they can hear this or that but is unwilling to use controls to me these claims mean nothing and have no value or interest to me.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I have a question: For all of those who believe no one, not just you, but no one else, can hear any difference in an amp or DAC, why are you here? Would you not have gone to Best Buy and bought whatever was cheapest with the features you want? All the same right? Or do you believe at some point, the differences get small enough that you can't hear them, so you believe no one else can?

Some of us do hear a difference. Probably not all. We do not have to prove it, and you do not have to disprove it. The question is what is different, can we measure it, and can it help to make a purchase decision? That is the only reason to be on this forum. I believe there is some point, if the tests were inclusive enough, where all would not hear a difference. I want to know what that set of parameters is. If it is different for everyone, highly likely, and you could figure out your threshold, then you have simple price shopping for above that threshold.

If you have been in a blind ABX of amplifiers, you would know many do sound identical, some differ. Of those that differ, the untrained invariably prefers those with a little more distortion. Ones with a lot do usually come up as failures. Why? How much? Can we quantify it? With a simple THD number, we are not considering preference for even or odd order, lower throughout or higher low order tapering off quicker but producing the same THD + N number. Measurable. Audible, by at least some of us. The speaker load can effect the amplifiers distortion or not by an order of magnitude. Also measurable. Is that taken into account? FWIW, the tests I sat in on were so long ago, differences in amps were a lot greater. There are quite a few today I suspect are all good enough for everyone unless there is an additional personal filter favoring one distortion over another or lack of any. Again, can we quantify it?

Your first paragraph is just straw-manning.

 

[JRS]

<EDIT> Would you still have had the same bias that the tests are perfect and no one can hear differently? ( I remember the argument then) Or do you sell some bit of kit that the subjectivist have panned that measures well so you have a campaign to proclaim everyone can't hear and your product must be perfect? Proclaiming everyone but you wrong is just not conducive to moving the question forward. I don't know what you can hear or care if you do hear. I know what I hear, consistently and would like to further measurements to describe it.

Perhaps this has been said already, but what I find curious is found in your last sentence where you seem to implore science to discover the missing msmt that can account for what you have perceived. This strikes me as a tall order indeed, given that there are only so many ways in which to change a signal--presumably when TWO SIGNALS can be depicted on a high resolution display and superimposed within an eyelash or less, and can be electronically subtracted from one another to obtain their difference, and that difference can be amplified by a 100 fold, and still have nothing, then one might be justified in concluding that there is no difference.

Yet at the same time, you seem disinterested in trying to accurately characterize your ability to hear this difference, insisting that it is obvious and that your wife can to. So find a third party and do a double blind--you can even team up and discuss all you want whether it was this DAC or that DAC and let the third party do the switching. I suspect if properly set up, you will be amazed before you are half way through.

Just seems presumptuous that you want others to do all the work.

 

[Killingbeans]

I have a question: For all of those who believe no one, not just you, but no one else, can hear any difference in an amp or DAC, why are you here?

To get a clearer picture of what deserves the most time and resources in the hunt for effective and consistent high fidelity audio reproduction.

I won't pretend to be doing science on an internet forum, but instead I try to look at the data being presented to me and weigh it on the scales that hard science has given us.

Or do you believe at some point, the differences get small enough that you can't hear them, so you believe no one else can?

I believe that some of them get small enough to be inconsequential in the grander scheme of things. And more importantly, some claims of differences become improbable enough to warrant a need for substantial evidence in order to deserve any consideration.

We do not have to prove it, and you do not have to disprove it.

If you make a claim and suggest an investigation, at the very least you should support the claim with solid evidence before starting the investigation. It gives the option of letting the investigation target specific things and waste a minimum of time and effort. On the other hand, if the claim has no solid foundation, the risk of going on a wild goose chase is very real. Worst case you'll make both youself and others run around in circles for ever and ever.

If it is different for everyone, highly likely, and you could figure out your threshold, then you have simple price shopping for above that threshold.

True. If I was the owner of a serious audio company, I'd probaly gather a small army of high school students with near impeccable hearing, and give them extensive hearing tests to form personal calibration files, just like you would a microphone (and "recalibrate" them with regular intervals). Then they'd get thorough training in listening for all kinds of artifacts and deviations. Finally I'd use that personal army to do the barrage of proper blind testing needed to set my own baseline for thesholds of audibility. If my products stayed below those thresholds, I'd be confident enough to tell anybody claiming a difference to put a sock in it (reviewers at least... would be a little more diplomatic towards my customers).

And yeah, I know it's a silly dream. Probably would be way, way more economically feasible to just examine a boatload of the peer-reviewed publications that are already out there.

 

[tvrgeek]

No answer to my question why some folks are here if they believe they all sound the same.

 

[Raindog123]

No answer to my question why some folks are here if they believe they all sound the same.

Nobody has claimed that the worst DACs sound as good as the best DACs. The claim is that DACs that measure well enough to be effectively transparent cannot be distinguished, when used within the operating envelope tested. There are certainly DACs out there that do not test to be audibly transparent

 

[Leiker535]

No answer to my question why some folks are here if they believe they all sound the same.

Because with DACs the measurements done in ASR are purposed to discriminate transparency. If a DAC pass linearity, FR and distortion tests, it should be human hearing perfect to the source.

But you also bring up the points with power amps, and while much of the same points can be made, it generally isn't the same picture as DACs. There is no ASR consensus that well measured amps sound the same at all circumstances, that's just strawmaning. Amir himself has a guessed arbitrary scale of how true measurements predict the sound, and power amps are not infallible like DACs because there are more variables at play; that goes even further for speakers and specially headphones, where fixture makes a huge difference in predicted sound.

 

[danadam]

No answer to my question why some folks are here if they believe they all sound the same.

I like the company.

Now what? Does that answer help you with anything?

 

[Raindog123]

No answer to my question why some folks are here if they believe they all sound the same.

And, I am here for this "holy grail" in the upper left (in red):

 

[Galliardist]

No answer to my question why some folks are here if they believe they all sound the same.

I am here for the reviews and discussions of the stuff that matters: speakers, room treatments, DSP.

And I do indeed just buy the cheapest available electronics with the features I want from Best Buy.

To get a clearer picture of what deserves the most time and resources in the hunt for effective and consistent high fidelity audio reproduction.

I won't pretend to be doing science on an internet forum, but instead I try to look at the data being presented to me and weigh it on the scales that hard science has given us.

Maybe someone needs to try reading?

 

[Robin L]

And, I am here for this "holy grail" in the upper left (in red):


View attachment 178905

I was told there would be snacks.

 

[tvrgeek]

Because one has the belief what they can or can not hear has no bearing on what others can and can not hear. I am not telling anyone here what they can hear, what they care about what they hear, what I think they should hear. Likewise, you have no basis other than your preconceived BIAS to so arrogantly tell me what I can or can not hear. You do not know. So why do you seem to care so much to proclaim I am wrong in what I and others do?

If you care about sound treatments, great. Very important and we can agree on that. Maybe you have some ideas on MEASURING the environment in a quantifiable way that can help purchase decisions. Let us know. Do I use 4 inches of 703 or 2 of 705? Got any idea how to manage a floor to ceiling picture window behind my mains? I can't move my speakers out enough to get away. Oh, maybe I can't hear that either in your high and mighty knowledge of what I hear.

Raindog, I don't read hi-fi magazines. Figured out they reviewed favorably who paid for the back cover ad when I was still in elementary school. So that is not a bias on my part as I am totally ignorant of it. Funny , bias in favor of expensive when the issue claimed is how can I here a difference between a $350 DAC and a $100 DAC, and haven forbid, find the $100 one does not cause the repulsive sound that bothers me. I know what I hear and it is not some subtle sit and concentrate magic floating in the ether.