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Measuring for tonal characteristics

Mivera

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#1
It's well known that different products have different tonal signatures. As accurate as we try to reproduce the mic feeds in our systems, no 2 systems sound the same. Especially speakers. There's 1000 ways to build a speaker, but at the end of the day what one chooses is a matter of subjective taste. Is there any method of measuring tonal characteristics? If so, how does it look on paper?
 

Phelonious Ponk

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#2
It's well known that different products have different tonal signatures. As accurate as we try to reproduce the mic feeds in our systems, no 2 systems sound the same. Especially speakers. There's 1000 ways to build a speaker, but at the end of the day what one chooses is a matter of subjective taste. Is there any method of measuring tonal characteristics? If so, how does it look on paper?
Maybe i don't understand the question. Shouldn't the "tone" of a system or component show up in FR measurements?

Tim
 

Mivera

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#3
Maybe i don't understand the question. Shouldn't the "tone" of a system or component show up in FR measurements?

Tim
I made this example on another thread, but never got any answers yet. Between these 2 drivers, what can the measured electrical, mechanical, and acoustical data tell us about the tonal characteristics?

18wu-8741t00.jpg
18wu-8747t00.jpg
 

iridium

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#4
Is there any method of measuring tonal characteristics?
NO.

Tone is a personal thing; like taste for different foods, wines, cars, etc. When 2 people taste the same food, each brain responds differently. Just the way the world turns.

iridium.
 

Mivera

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#5
NO.

Tone is a personal thing; like taste for different foods, wines, cars, etc. When 2 people taste the same food, each brain responds differently. Just the way the world turns.

iridium.
So are you saying it would have to be evaluated subjectively?
 

Mivera

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#6
Those 2 drivers are very popular units. They are almost the same, only 1 has an aluminum cone, and one has a paper cone. This speaker has a choice of either the aluminum or paper version. Based on the measured results of the final system, how can we describe how they would differ in tonal characteristics?

http://www.selahaudio.com/lineup/#/verita/
 

Thomas savage

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#7
well measuring it subjectively is a waste of time if you're trying to look for universal truths so you can predict toneal character, in either single components or collectively as part of a system.

i was out at a gig last night and having got home i dug out the latest album by the artist that i had yet to listen too but the gig was based around and was shocked at how true to the live event the tone and presentation was at home. infact it was better(to me) at home as i was not missing any of the fine symbol work the drummer was doing, i could understand the lyrics better(perfectly), all instruments were present and all the while the good elements of the live event like the kick drum weight and tone were identical (to me) at home but no cut off top end.

so the tone was set by the album i guess and carried into the live performance, not the other way round. and my hifi did not get in the WAY of this deliberate representation. so that's good i guess..
 

Mivera

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#8
well measuring it subjectively is a waste of time if you're trying to look for universal truths so you can predict toneal character, in either single components or collectively as part of a system.

i was out at a gig last night and having got home i dug out the latest album by the artist that i had yet to listen too but the gig was based around and was shocked at how true to the live event the tone and presentation was at home. infact it was better(to me) at home as i was not missing any of the fine symbol work the drummer was doing, i could understand the lyrics better(perfectly), all instruments were present and all the while the good elements of the live event like the kick drum weight and tone were identical (to me) at home but no cut off top end.

so the tone was set by the album i guess and carried into the live performance, not the other way round. and my hifi did not get in the WAY of this deliberate representation. so that's good i guess..
But if the cones and dome mid on your speakers were made from ceramic instead of aluminum, do you think they would be indistinguishable from what you have now in tonal characteristics?
 

Thomas savage

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#9
But if the cones and dome mid on your speakers were made from ceramic instead of aluminum, do you think they would be indistinguishable from what you have now in tonal characteristics?
i dont know, i would think that certain innate characteristics of the driver materials could be compensated\manipulated for\by in other areas of the design and further tweaked by partnering component choice .

it would be cool\useful to have a known measurement for categorising this, i am not aware of any.. but that's not saying much as i known nothing.

what it tone?(what makes it different inside our systems from the design of the artists) how is it implied or manipulated beyond the recording (sound) process?

for me i dont want my system to have its own tone! i want it to be dictated to me by the recording artists (performers and recording guys). i know for a lot of guys(whether they are aware or not) they enjoy the harmonizing 'tonal' voice of their system and may have put it together to achieve this. but i want a soft jazz to sound like soft smokey ballad like but i want machine head to sound... well like a metal band 100% unsanitized. IMO there is communication in tone that can be filtered out by some hifi for a more polite harmonised result ... NO THANKS!
 
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Mivera

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#10
i dont know, i would think that certain innate characteristics of the driver materials could be compensated\manipulated for\by in other areas of the design and further tweaked by partnering component choice .

it would be cool\useful to have a known measurement for categorising this, i am not aware of any.. but that's not saying much as i known nothing.

what it tone?(what makes it different inside our systems from the design of the artists) how is it implied or manipulated beyond the recording (sound) process?

for me i dont want my system to have its own tone! i want it to be dictated to me by the recording artists (performers and recording guys).

Well all cone/dome materials have different tonal characteristics. It's up to the designer to choose what he's aiming for with his particular design. Here's another example. Both tweeters are the almost the same besides the dome material. How would we know how they would compare tonally by looking at the comprehensive list of measured specs?

tlabs beryllum.jpg
tlabs mag.jpg
 

Thomas savage

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#11
Well all cone/dome materials have different tonal characteristics. It's up to the designer to choose what he's aiming for with his particular design. Here's another example. Both tweeters are the almost the same besides the dome material. How would we know the how they would compare tonally by looking at the comprehensive list of measured specs?

View attachment 557 View attachment 558
yea i get that, its fundamental to the voicing of speakers i guess. but surely with one hand (driver material) you can give a tonal slant and another (x-over magnet designs? ) you can change again and its the combo of the two things that's then further complicated\compromised by the partnering choices to drive that load. i would want the speaker to have as little of its own voice as possible, this is my idea for the rest of my setup too.. i call that hifi without ego, ego neutral. some call it transparency though that's a detail thing too??

all this subjective bollocks feeds back to your original question\demand.. we want\need a measurement for this... a rating on kit would be super cool, like a heat rating for chili's
 

Mivera

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#12
yea i get that, its fundamental to the voicing of speakers i guess. but surely with one hand (driver material) you can give a tonal slant and another (x-over) you can change again and its the combo of the two things that's then further complicated\compromised by the partnering choices to drive the that load. i would want the speaker to have as little of its own voice as possible, this is my idea for the rest of my setup too.. i call that hifi without ego, ego neutral. some call it transparency though that's a detail thing too??

all this subjective bollocks feeds back to your original question\demand.. we want\need a measurement for this... a rating on kit would be super cool, like a heat rating for chili's
All of the tweeters these guys make are designed to be extremely high resolution accurate tweeters. How would I know by reading the spec sheets which one was best for my design?
 

Thomas savage

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#13
All of the tweeters these guys make are designed to be extremely high resolution accurate tweeters. How would I know by reading the spec sheets which one was best for my design?
by designing it yourself!!:p
stop bolting things together and start getting into magnates and metal foil:D

whats your aim? true transparency or colored for polite hifi crowd( the majority of audiophiles imo) you strike me as a guy who WANTS what he thinks is right, damn it mike you got to make it yourself. :) then you know!
 

Mivera

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#14
by designing it yourself!!:p
stop bolting things together and start getting into magnates and metal foil:D

whats your aim? true transparency or colored for polite hifi crowd( the majority of audiophiles imo)
Yes but I need to choose the drivers for my project. How would I know which ones to choose for my design based on all of the measured results in the world?
 

tomelex

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#15
All of the tweeters these guys make are designed to be extremely high resolution accurate tweeters. How would I know by reading the spec sheets which one was best for my design?
Really, where have you been!!:) the one that costs the most has to be the best for you design!!!!! Everybody knows that!;)
 

Thomas savage

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#16
Yes but I need to choose the drivers for my project. How would I know which ones to choose for my design based on all of the measured results in the world?
dont ask me i am just a horse.. ask a driver designer! you know hundreds :D i know but one:oops::D:D

being sensible for a min my vivids are metal but they dont sound like metal if you get what i mean? they sing pure and true imo.. it depends on what your asking it to do too... its beyond me, best look into the theory of driver design(if you can't make you own) at least then you might be able to know more from the spec sheet. i am surprised you never have done this as control is what you want, if you are opinionated (you are) its the only way to really get what you want. if i made speakers i would want to do the whole lot, it all should be designed together imo.
 
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Mivera

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#17
Really, where have you been!!:) the one that costs the most has to be the best for you design!!!!! Everybody knows that!;)
Many drivers are the exact same price, just different cone/dome materials.
 

Mivera

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#18
dont ask me i am just a horse.. ask a driver designer! you know hundreds :D i know but one:oops::D:D
Well I already know how I do it, but I'm just wondering how it could be done without any subjective listening tests, because it could all be placebo using my method, and in reality there could be no difference in sound between all of the different cone/dome materials. So if my ears can't be trusted, what is the more scientific approach to doing this?
 

iridium

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#19
So are you saying it would have to be evaluated subjectively?
For Tone preference, YES.
Measurements for almost everything else.
Tone is a personal brain thing: some people like pooh xylophone music, puke green cars, spicy food equal to Fukushima, driving 50 in the fast lane.... There is no accounting for taste & ignorance.

iridium.
 
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