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Measuring for tonal characteristics

Mivera

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#21
For Tone preference, YES.
Measurements for almost everything else.
Tone is a personal brain thing: some people like pooh xylophone music, puke green cars, spicy food equal to Fukushima, driving 50 in the fast lane.... There is no accounting for taste & ignorance.

iridium.
But say I liked the sound of the beryllium version and I said it was better than the magnesium version. To be scientific about things, would we need a large panel to do ABX testing to see if it was placebo, or real?
 

Thomas savage

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#22
View attachment 561
But say I liked the sound of the beryllium version and I said it was better than the magnesium version. To be scientific about things, would we need a large panel to do ABX testing to see if it was placebo, or real?
2162869-2162864-batman_says_no.png
 

Mivera

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#23
How is this different than any other equipment, formats or anything else in audio then? All of the tweeters have exceptional measurements, they just have different tonal characteristics. But which one will produce the sound that is closer to the original event?
 

Thomas savage

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#24
How is this different than any other equipment, formats or anything else in audio then? All of the tweeters have exceptional measurements, they just have different tonal characteristics. But which one will produce the sound that is closer to the original event?
71943e2b9ede43e4fb9be6cf160ecc21.jpg
 

iridium

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#25
But say I liked the sound of the beryllium version and I said it was better than the magnesium version. To be scientific about things, would we need a large panel to do ABX testing to see if it was placebo, or real?
The Beryllium version would be better than a magnesium version.
TAD put a fortune into developing their beryllium domes for their horns & it does sound better.
Subjectively, objectively, I do NOT care; a properly done Beryllium dome wipes the floors with magnesium & titanium domes.
NOW, if we are just talking tweeters, there is also greatness in properly designed & executed soft domes.

iridium.
 

Mivera

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#26
The Beryllium version would be better than a magnesium version.
TAD put a fortune into developing their beryllium domes for their horns & it does sound better.
Subjectively, objectively, I do NOT care; a properly done Beryllium dome wipes the floors with magnesium & titanium domes.
NOW, if we are just talking tweeters, there is also greatness in properly designed & executed soft domes.

iridium.
Yes I know that, I have built a speaker with this tweeter already. How would I know that the beryllium one was better from the data sheet with all of the measurement data? People could just say it's snake oil just the same as different cap metals/dielectrics making a difference in the sound. Or cables making a difference in the sound. Or DSD sounding better than PCM.
 

Thomas savage

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#27
Yes I know that, I have built a speaker with this tweeter already. How would I know that the beryllium one was better from the data sheet with all of the measurement data? People could just say it's snake oil just the same as different cap metals/dielectrics making a difference in the sound. Or cables making a difference in the sound. Or DSD sounding better than PCM.
yes i know, i see what you're arguing\trying to highlight from the start, its about the validity of the subjective assessment in putting audio components together...,
i know :eek::) you know there is no measurement and were being a little naughty to make a point..
 

Mivera

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#28
Look they even have a ceramic version:

tlabs ceramic.jpg
 

Mivera

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#29
yes i know, i see what you're arguing\trying to highlight from the start, its about the validity of the subjective assessment in putting audio components together...,
i know :eek::) you know there is no measurement and were being a little naughty to make a point..
Some think everything can be measured, and without this data, it's not real, and can't be trusted.
 

Mivera

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#31
If Dic came out with a beryllium dome mid version of your speaker that everyone raved about being better, would that mean your aluminum dome version was a compromise? Or would that mean it would just be snake oil and they would sound exactly the same?
 

Thomas savage

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#32
Some think everything can be measured, and without this data, it's not real, and can't be trusted.
there are technical reasons why the beryllium dome outperforms a aluminum dome, whether they are relevant in the context of your design goals is another matter.. as normal there is a fair bit more to this that just sticking a beryllium tweeter in means it will sound better..
 

iridium

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#33
Yes I know that, I have built a speaker with this tweeter already. How would I know that the beryllium one was better from the data sheet with all of the measurement data? People could just say it's snake oil just the same as different cap metals/dielectrics making a difference in the sound. Or cables making a difference in the sound. Or DSD sounding better than PCM.
Mivera wrote: "How would I know that the beryllium one was better from the data sheet"

You would not, but someone else may have an epiphany & give you a better answer. Maybe, under identical controlled laboratory, sound room, etc. scenario with the drivers identically mic'ed, you might find more harsh harmonics in magnesium [or something else in the graphs].

MEASUREMENTS ARE GREAT IF THEY ARE PROPER, HONEST, & UNDERSTOOD.
Measurements are like statistics that can be manipulated to make 2 + 2 = 5.

iridium.
 

Thomas savage

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#34
If Dic came out with a beryllium dome mid version of your speaker that everyone raved about being better, would that mean your aluminum dome version was a compromise? Or would that mean it would just be snake oil and they would sound exactly the same?
i know what dic thinks about it, he likes the beryllium for certain applications, it depends on other design factors as to whether its effective or not in any one particular implementation. for my speaker they went out of their way to make all the drivers out of the same ish material. due to break up frequencies (i think) and maybe other factors i have forgotten it would unlikely provide a better result for me but i think maybe the bigger G1 would benefit.. i am remembering a conversation for some time ago so might be talking out my ares.
 

Mivera

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#35
there are technical reasons why the beryllium dome outperforms a aluminum dome, whether they are relevant in the context of your design goals is another matter.. as normal there is a fair bit more to this that just sticking a beryllium tweeter in means it will sound better..
Yes there is just like there is with caps resistors and coils. But you won't find this from industry standard measurement data.
 

Thomas savage

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#36
Mivera wrote: "How would I know that the beryllium one was better from the data sheet"

You would not, but someone else may have an epiphany & give you a better answer. Maybe, under identical controlled laboratory, sound room, etc. scenario with the drivers identically mic'ed, you might find more harsh harmonics in magnesium [or something else in the graphs].

MEASUREMENTS ARE GREAT IF THEY ARE PROPER, HONEST, & UNDERSTOOD.
Measurements are like statistics that can be manipulated to make 2 + 2 = 5.

iridium.
yes like the stats on the economy, best example i can think of.
 

Mivera

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#37
Mivera wrote: "How would I know that the beryllium one was better from the data sheet"

You would not, but someone else may have an epiphany & give you a better answer. Maybe, under identical controlled laboratory, sound room, etc. scenario with the drivers identically mic'ed, you might find more harsh harmonics in magnesium [or something else in the graphs].

MEASUREMENTS ARE GREAT IF THEY ARE PROPER, HONEST, & UNDERSTOOD.
Measurements are like statistics that can be manipulated to make 2 + 2 = 5.

iridium.
The way every speaker on the planet is designed, is through a combination of subjective and measurement data. Same with drivers. all of the worlds top driver manufacturers, Scan-Speak, Accuton, Seas, Vifa, Focal, Audio technology, Dynaudio etc, use extensive subjective evaluations to design their drivers. If everyone who worked for these manufacturers were completely deaf, and all they used were industry standard measurements to design their drivers/speakers, I would just imagine how they would sound.
 

amirm

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#38
But say I liked the sound of the beryllium version and I said it was better than the magnesium version. To be scientific about things, would we need a large panel to do ABX testing to see if it was placebo, or real?
ABX testing is not appropriate for speaker preference testing because we already know there are differences and that is all that ABX testing reveals. We still want to do blind testing but not ABX type.
 

tomelex

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#39
Some think everything can be measured, and without this data, it's not real, and can't be trusted.
Put me in the camp that says that everything in audio electronics, that we make, can be measured. Audio is simple. Its just you have to take time when you want to make in depth measurements. We can move atoms around to make initials, such as IBM, and take a picture of it, that was like 20 years ago, we can damn well measure any audio signal as it can only be frequency, phase, amplitude, etc.

Don't confuse what I said , I did not say we can measure why someone likes something, we can measure an audio signal though. There are no mysteries in measurements. Audio is kind of like American politics, you have two parties, and no party can even get off the ground, even if it is superior. In audio, you have stereo and multichannel, and nothing new that can really give us the feeling that we are in an immersive on the scene experience.
 

Mivera

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#40
ABX testing is not appropriate for speaker preference testing because we already know there are differences and that is all that ABX testing reveals. We still want to do blind testing but not ABX type.
But how is it any different than comparing DSD with PCM? At the end of the day if both measure excellent, isn't it subjective preference that matters the most?
 
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