Measured performance of my Denon PMA-2500NE

[restorer-john]

Was only wondering about comments of measured performance.

That was not your original post.

You wrote 'subjective performance' which you changed to 'objective performance' when you edited your post.

Ok... Why being so rude exactly? Excuse me, there isn't any "pissing contest" as I own the amp that you do not seem to have seen... or maybe I'm wrong?

I'm not being rude. Far from it. Remember, you asked for, and I quote:

I'm just starting my first thread to asking some thoughts and views about my main integrated amp.

So, you either want 'thoughts and views' or you don't. It would also appear that you only really want to hear 'thoughts and views' that you agree with.

ASR and its members are (mostly) independent thinkers, do not subscribe to group-think and really don't care one bit for subjective reviewing, hence the lack of replies to your initial post requesting such opinions. The HiFi news testing is inadequate in the presentation and the results are far from impressive for such an expensive amplifier.

Its noise levels are extremely high, both in this review and another I found, being around 40dB off from a SOTA amplifier.

Sure it looks pretty, but so do all the other amplifiers in a similar price range. Take the Yamaha AS-3000 (I had one on loan for a while) for example- it is better made, better performing and better finished in every respect. Even that amplifier is not as well made as some 80s and 90s amplifiers I own or have owned/sold.

So, if you want to go on with it, I'm happy to offer considered, factual and detailed analysis and opinions of the product. But if you just want to hear hot-air you agree with, and get high-fives from everyone, it won't happen.

 

[HammerSandwich]

It looks like a pretty solid amp. If it were mine, I'd probably find more joy in 1000 used CDs than an AHB2.

OTOH, it might be less than ideal for your speakers...

 

[restorer-john]

It looks like a pretty solid amp. If it were mine, I'd probably find more joy in 1000 used CDs than an AHB2.

Me too. I'd keep the Denon and save the money. The AHB-2 is not the be-all and end-all.

 

[maty]

If the Denon was mine, with few money, I will try the same with the AVR Sony:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nts-of-sony-str-za1100es-avr.7824/post-188552

To lose money in the sale is always on time, I say.

 

[JJB70]

I suspect that the overwhelming majority of people would be perfectly happy with these AV receivers. They offer a lot of features and functionality, even with the various tricks played by manufacturers their power is generally sufficient for normal listening and sound quality is fine in audible terms. I think that it is easy for objective reviewing to end up fixated on measurements that whilst indicative of excellent (or good enough) design don't really mean much in terms of listening experience. I do admire the products of companies like RME and Benchmark but the reality is that their stellar measured performance is way beyond the point of audible transparency.

 

[VintageFlanker]

That was not your original post.

You wrote 'subjective performance' which you changed to 'objective performance' when you edited your post.

Agreed, that wasn't. But you probably noticed English is not my first language at all? I had to edit my post (as many here, sorry for that) when I red it again. Sorry for confusion. "Objective" was what I meant at first.

So, you either want 'thoughts and views' or you don't. It would also appear that you only really want to hear 'thoughts and views' that you agree with.

Alright. I'm not afraid of hearing something bad (or even very bad) about my amp. The thing was about "build quality" my two last posts. That's why I asked to you if you owned (or simply "touched" the product somehow) maybe because you were aware about known quality issues or something I didn't noticed with my unit.

The HiFi news testing is inadequate in the presentation and the results are far from impressive for such an expensive amplifier.

Thanks. That's loud and clear, and that what I wanted to confirm.

Take the Yamaha AS-3000 (I had one on loan for a while) for example- it is better made, better performing and better finished in every respect.

I barely know the AS-3000 (only tested in stores, never owned one)but I guess it is. Still, price in France is 4800€, so quite more expensive than the Denon (almost half cheaper in some stores). But I see your point.

So, if you want to go on with it, I'm happy to offer considered, factual and detailed analysis and opinions of the product. But if you just want to hear hot-air you agree with, and get high-fives from everyone, it won't happen.

That extatly why I'm here on ASR! Thanks to everyone here for that.

I think (hope) we're good.

 

[Krunok]

I wouldn't call the build quality outstanding- Denon are just playing to the audiophile's hot-buttons.

What each of us would call "outstanding" is highly subjective. Probably I also wouldn't call build quality of this amp "outstanding" but I would call it excellent as I find nothing to complain about.

EDIT: Regarding the measured specs of the amp section.. well, I would call them acceptable - no stellar performance there but it should still sound neutral. But for that kind of money I was expecting better.

 

[JJB70]

Build quality is something that can be viewed in different ways. There is the tactile feel of a device. For example, the materials, whether the buttons and dials are nicely weighted and damped and whether things like edges are rounded off to reduce the chance of injury. There is fit and finish. There is the design and arrangement of components and boards. The quality of components, arrangement of heat sinks and/cooling, wiring layout etc. And more. Some of this makes no difference to performance but does make a big difference to pleasure of use and durability, other aspects are important for performance but do nothing for tactile feel. Some companies major on tactile quality, others on electrical and mechanical quality etc. If you want it all then it is seldom cheap. And some seem to avoid quality of any sort. The interesting one is fit and finish as often this is completely unconnected to product cost. Even entry level stuff from the likes of the big Japanese outfits tends to have excellent fit and finish whereas a lot of of high end boutique gear has appalling fit and finish.

 

[maty]

I just ask here about NFB. How much NFB is enough in Class A and AB amplifiers?

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/sol...-blocking-feedback-capacitor-post5831147.html


Interesting comment by PMA about distortion:

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/339369-hear-uncompressed-sample-test-post5830508.html

[ It makes a big difference what kind of music is used for the test. In another thread I showed an effect of cross-over like distortion to narrow band noise (1000 - 1300 Hz). Though the distortion used seems quite low on the usual 1kHz high level sine, it is quite devastating for the low level signals. The files are here

http://pmacura.cz/noise_test.zip

and the distortion used is shown in the plot attached. If this distortion is applied to a rock music (I tried well recorded Godwhacker by Steely Dan in 96/24), it is almost impossible to tell that the distortion was added.

If I added the same distortion to Beethoven's No. 9 symphony Movement No. 1, the distortion is immediately audible in the low level passage just after the beginning.

So the test files should be chosen very carefully and they should contain high dynamic range and both loud and silent passages, the music that is always close to full scale level is not good for testing. ]

 

[Singslinger]

Hello VintageFlaker, I'm new to this forum and I'd like to add that I too own this amp.

I don't really understand much of the scientific stuff or the technical measurements but I'd like to say that I'm tremendously happy with the build quality and more importantly, the sound. In my humble opinion, it offers excellent value for money.

Cheers!

 

[BillG]

Ok... Why being so rude exactly? Excuse me, there isn't any "pissing contest"

I see you've encountered the forum's Donald Trump...

 

[peng]

I would be more interested in some serious measurements of the Denon PMA-SX. $7,000 for a 50 W 67 lbs class AB stereo analog only integrated amp, it should measure as good as the AHB2 but I doubt that would be case. @maty , do you know of any measurement on this expensive amp (on per Watt basis), not even the Polish site?

 

[maty]

Nope.

[Bid IMG] https://www.hifishock.org/galleries/electronics/denon/integrated-amplifier/pma-sx-1-denon.jpg

 

[VintageFlanker]

I would be more interested in some serious measurements of the Denon PMA-SX. $7,000 for a 50 W 67 lbs class AB stereo analog only integrated amp, it should measure as good as the AHB2 but I doubt that would be case. @maty , do you know of any measurement on this expensive amp (on per Watt basis), not even the Polish site?

Here are the official specs:

Power amplifier:
Rated output / both channel drive (CD → SP OUT) 50W + 50W (load 8Ω, 20Hz-20kHz, T.H.D. 0.07%)
Maximum practical output / 100W + 100W (load 4Ω, 1kHz, T.H.D. 0.7%)
Total harmonic distortion / 0.007% (rated output -3dB, load 8Ω, 1kHz)
Output terminal / load 4-16Ω
Preamplifier:
Equalizer amplifier output / 150mV
Input sensitivity / impedance / PHONO MM: 2.5mV / 47kΩ, BALANCE: 105mV / 100kΩ, LINE: 105mV / 47kΩ
RIAA deviation / PHONO MM: 20Hz-20kHz ± 0.3dB
General characteristics section:
SN ratio / (A network) PHONO MM: 89dB (when the input terminal is short-circuited, when the input signal is 5mV), BALANCED: 105dB, LINE: 105dB

Needless to say, the AHB2 runs circles around it.

 

[Willem]

The biggest weakness seems to be high gain and high noise. Would some inline attenuators on the inputs help here?

 

[peng]

Here are the official specs:

Power amplifier:
Rated output / both channel drive (CD → SP OUT) 50W + 50W (load 8Ω, 20Hz-20kHz, T.H.D. 0.07%)
Maximum practical output / 100W + 100W (load 4Ω, 1kHz, T.H.D. 0.7%)
Total harmonic distortion / 0.007% (rated output -3dB, load 8Ω, 1kHz)
Output terminal / load 4-16Ω
Preamplifier:
Equalizer amplifier output / 150mV
Input sensitivity / impedance / PHONO MM: 2.5mV / 47kΩ, BALANCE: 105mV / 100kΩ, LINE: 105mV / 47kΩ
RIAA deviation / PHONO MM: 20Hz-20kHz ± 0.3dB
General characteristics section:
SN ratio / (A network) PHONO MM: 89dB (when the input terminal is short-circuited, when the input signal is 5mV), BALANCED: 105dB, LINE: 105dB

Needless to say, the AHB2 runs circles around it.

Yep, unless it would measure much better than specified, that is, the specs might have been too conservative. I can't help but wonder why Denon even bother making such an high price low power integrated amp, may be to compete with Luxman lol.. Luxman do make even less powerful integrated amps in the $6-8K range but at least were class A amps iirc.

 

[AudioSG]

Greetings from Singapore,

Hope everyone is safe, healthy and enjoying music/movies during this period.

I came across your forum when researching for an AV receiver/amplifier to replace my 35 year old Technics SU-45A amplifier which died in its right channel last month.

For what its worth, the DENON PMA-2500NE amplifier won Silver in the 2017 Japan Audio Excellence Awards.

Highlighted below are the awards won by Denon and it's sister company Marantz, which may suggest that they are established brands in the Japanese audio market.


Japan Audio Excellence Award 2020
https://www.phileweb.com/aea/2020/result.html

GOLD AWARD 2020
DENON
DCD-SX1 LIMITED CD / SACD player
PMA-SX1 LIMITED integrated amplifier

Bronze award 2020
DENON
DCD-600NE CD player
PMA-600NE integrated amplifier

Bronze award 2020
MARANTZ
M-CR612 Network cd receiver

Special award 2020
Marantz
NR1200 Integrated amplifier


2019
https://www.phileweb.com/aea/2019/kekka.html

Bronze Award 2019
MARANTZ Integrated amplifier
PM-12

Bronze Award 2019
DENON Integrated amplifier, digital player, network player
800NE series


2018
https://www.phileweb.com/aea/2018/kekka.html

Special Award 2018
MARANTZ ND8006 / PM8006
Development of new generation 8000 series


2017
https://www.phileweb.com/aea/2017/kekka.html

Silver Award 2017
DENON Digital player / main amplifier
DCD-2500NE / PMA-2500NE

Bronze Award 2017
DENON Digital player / main amplifier
DCD-1600NE / PMA-1600NE


2015
https://www.phileweb.com/aea/2015/kekka.html

Silver Award 2015
DENON Integrated amplifier
PMA-SX1

Bronze Award 2015
MARANTZ CD / SACD player / main amplifier
SA8005 / PM8005

Product Development Special Award 2015
DENON PMA-SX1
For the construction of DENON's high-end series


2010
https://www.phileweb.com/ranking/aea/2010/results.html#gold

Silver Award 2010
Denon Integrated amplifier PMA-2000SE


2009
https://www.phileweb.com/ranking/aea/2009/results.html#gold

Silver Award 2009
Denon Integrated amplifier PMA-SX


2006
https://www.phileweb.com/ranking/aea/2006/english.html#results

Silver Award 2006
DENON Integrated amplifier PMA-SA1


2005
https://www.phileweb.com/ranking/aea/2005/result_e.html

Bronze Award 2005
DENON PRE-MAIN AMPLIFIER PMA-SA11

 

[Zog]

I'm not being rude. Far from it.

Assertion without justification. It came across as rude to me - likewise assertion ...

 

[deniall83]

Had my eye on this amp for a while. I don't really know what I'm looking at here but can anyone explain if this measures well or not?

https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/3078-denon-pma-800ne

 

[peng]

Had my eye on this amp for a while. I don't really know what I'm looking at here but can anyone explain if this measures well or not?

https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/3078-denon-pma-800ne

Not bad, but there are better ones at that price point. Problem for me is, I don't trust that site's measurements, I don't trust it enough even just for comparison between devices by this same site.