Measured performance of my Denon PMA-2500NE

[VintageFlanker]

Hi @amirm and ASR folks.

I'm just starting my first thread to ask some thoughts and views about my main integrated amp. The Denon PMA-2500NE flagship (≃ 2999€). This is my beloved big beast. It is hugely massive and weights 25kg, so sending it to Amir (furthermore, from France) is out of question. Alas, it is only available in Japan and EU, so I don't think this unit is going to be reviewed here anytime soon.

I bought it, like in most case, only based on many very positive (and subjective) reviews I've red everywhere. Few measurements I found, apart from official specs, are ones from Hi-Fi News. Here they are:

As I'm used to read ASR measurements, I don't know how this would be translated by "Amir's standards". I guess this is not that great (especially "poor" SNR). However, I'm not necessarily thinking to upgrade... even if I have to admit that buying an Benchmark AHB2 comes to mind... cost and availability in France are big draws . I'm nut sure if this would be somewhat "audible" upgrade anyway! Here are the Hi-Fi News measurements of the AHB2 for comparison:



I'm still interested if someone may comment on the objective performance showed here...

PS: I'm talking exclusively about the amp performance, I don't use the integrated DAC since I've got my ADI-2 DAC.

 

[amirm]

Paul Miller's situation within Hifi News reminds of Milton in the great movie Office Space. They keep shrinking the amount of space for his measurements to the extent you can't hardly find anything useful there anymore:

 

[Xulonn]

Nice looking amp - here's some pics for others to see...

 

[VintageFlanker]

Nice looking amp

It is. And the build quality is simply outstanding (and it's Made in Japan)

 

[maty]

The inferior model, Denon PMA-1600NE, has long attracted my attention,

[Polish] https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/2855-denon-pma-1600ne

To English:

* https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/2855-denon-pma-1600ne

* https://www.translatetheweb.com/?re...reo/wzmacniacze-stereo/2855-denon-pma-1600ne#

And Denon PMA-800NE

[Polish] https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/3078-denon-pma-800ne

 

[maty]

Denon PMA-1600NE, better with true 8 Ohms loudspeakers or maybe 4 Ohms with low sensitivity, I think.

 

[maty]

DENON DCD-2500NE + PMA-2500NE

[Polish] https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/odtwarzacz-cd-wzmacniacz/2708-denon-dcd-2500ne-pma-2500ne

to English:

* https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/odtwarzacz-cd-wzmacniacz/2708-denon-dcd-2500ne-pma-2500ne

* https://www.translatetheweb.com/?fr...d-wzmacniacz/2708-denon-dcd-2500ne-pma-2500ne

Voltage of only this value is enough to achieve maximum power, which is associated with a very high voltage gain factor (199 V / V at 8 Ω); however, such a decision also reflects a low noise distortion, the S / N ratio is only 75 dB, and the dynamics reach 96 dB. The transfer characteristics (Figure 1) show a light, although unusual, gain in the supra-acoustic range, the peak of which is about 80 kHz.

 

[VintageFlanker]

DENON DCD-2500NE + PMA-2500NE

[Polish] https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/odtwarzacz-cd-wzmacniacz/2708-denon-dcd-2500ne-pma-2500ne

to English:

* https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/odtwarzacz-cd-wzmacniacz/2708-denon-dcd-2500ne-pma-2500ne

* https://www.translatetheweb.com/?fr...d-wzmacniacz/2708-denon-dcd-2500ne-pma-2500ne

Seems not good but I have to get more into the review. Saw another graph where THD seems to remains below - 90db (2nd harmonic distortion, I guess) and stay around - 100db all the way to 20khz.

 

[maty]

As Nelson Pass defends, the THD+N at 1 watt is very important because at home usually the amplifiers move in that range, I mean the SPL average and not the SPL peaks.

With what it costs what is required is distortion of 0.1%, 1 watt and 8 Ohms. And SNR-A > 80 dB.

Then there is another problem that does not appear in the measurements, the total amount of negative feedback. It is usually very high in the SS, higher than 29 dB to get excellent numbers at the expense of impairing the sound quality, in terms of 3-D, tonality of acoustic instruments and...

With the current recordings, with so much computer-generated instrumentation, and voices with Autotune (vade retro satana) it should matter much less. It is the kind of music that the vast majority listens to. But then it does not make much sense to spend a fortune on the music equipment, I say.

What is the use of having an engine with many horses if we supply fuel mixed with water, aka the badly modern recordings. But this is another discussion.

 

[LTig]

Then there is another problem that does not appear in the measurements, the total amount of negative feedback. It is usually very high in the SS, higher than 29 dB to get excellent numbers at the expense of impairing the sound quality, in terms of 3-D, tonality of acoustic instruments and...

Another red herring lifting its ugly head again ...
Will this never end?

 

[maty]

Nope. As long as Amirm does not say anything about it, I will use the enriched edition as I have done for over twenty years.

At least you could have taken the opportunity to comment on how much NFB is reasonable and where is the limit or ... and not just because of the use of red color.

 

[levimax]

Nope. As long as Amirm does not say anything about it, I will use the enriched edition as I have done for over twenty years.

At least you could have taken the opportunity to comment on how much NFB is reasonable and where is the limit or ... and not just because of the use of red color.

Here is a link that explains when it come to NFB why more is better..... https://www.edn.com/design/consumer...fiers--Why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-too-much

 

[maty]

Here is a link that explains when it come to NFB why more is better..... https://www.edn.com/design/consumer...fiers--Why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-too-much

NFB in Class A or AB amps of course. Class D is other world, aka different design, technology...

 

[levimax]

NFB in Class A or AB amps of course. Class D is other world.

I believe this Denon Amp is Class AB by looking at the pictures of the insides and the fact that it weighs 25 Kg. My understanding is that NFB in class D amps is also effective at improving linearity but it is more complicated because of stability issues.

 

[maty]

I believe this Denon Amp is Class AB by looking at the pictures of the insides and the fact that it weighs 25 Kg. My understanding is that NFB in class D amps is also effective at improving linearity but it is more complicated because of stability issues.

Bruno Putzeys has shown that negative feedback is never too much in his class D designs (Hypex and now PURIFI). That technology has other possible drawbacks but not the abuse of feedback, at least that I know.

 

[LTig]

Nope. As long as Amirm does not say anything about it, I will use the enriched edition as I have done for over twenty years.

At least you could have taken the opportunity to comment on how much NFB is reasonable and where is the limit or ... and not just because of the use of red color.

How much NFB? As much as possible, as long as the amplifier is stable under all possible loads.

 

[restorer-john]

It is. And the build quality is simply outstanding (and it's Made in Japan)

I wouldn't call the build quality outstanding- Denon are just playing to the audiophile's hot-buttons. Most of the major Japanese manufacturers, including Denon, built amplifiers in the late 80s and early 90s (in Japan of course) with considerably better specifications, construction, features and performance, and all for a lot less money in real terms.

That said, the TOTL models, as they always have, command a significant premium, more-so these days due to the economies of scale being not in the buyers' favor, as they were after the Japanese stock market crash in the early 90s.

 

[VintageFlanker]

I wouldn't call the build quality outstanding

Sorry, but do you own the PMA-2500NE? Seeing it everyday, I assure you that the external build IS stellar (though I don't have a clue about the internal construction). I owned many amps before, modern and vintage that simply cannot touch it.

 

[restorer-john]

Seeing it everyday, I assure you that the external build IS stellar (though I don't have a clue about the internal construction). I owned many amps before, modern and vintage that simply cannot touch it.

I'm glad you love your Denon.

Today is Saturday, so I'm not interested in an internet pissing contest on amplifier construction, build quality, design and performance. Suffice it to say, there are plenty of examples of much worse and much better in all those aspects.

Cheers.

 

[VintageFlanker]

I'm not interested in an internet pissing contest on amplifier construction, build quality, design and performance.

Ok... Why being so rude exactly? Excuse me, there isn't any "pissing contest" as I own the amp that you do not seem to have seen... or maybe I'm wrong?

Anyway, initial thread was about measured performance. I'm glad with the build, and (subjective) performance. Was only wondering about comments of measured performance.

Cheers.