Maximum subjectively preferred loudness level

[tmuikku]

The 1st one is not correct but the 2nd one is spot on.

They are interlinked, even when the distance from listener to speaker is short there is an effect because we are inside a room.

A thought experiment: Blink of an eye is roughly 100ms, which is roughly 34 meters of sound travel. So, in a small room one gets lots of sound to ears within the blink of an eye that has traveled various distances, mostly long. The 34m of travel could mean for example 7 early specular reflections between front and backwall that were 5meters apart. While the 34m alone attenuates the highs some, also each collision with surfaces like walls or furniture attenuates and scatters the highs more than lows. An average seventh order reflection has probably lost quite much of highs. If one measures frequency response at listening spot it shows up: even if speakers anechoic direct sound was flat the in-room response probably is not because whole lot "more" sound than the direct sound arrives to the observation point from all around which results some kind of a downwards slope frequency response. In general, highs attenuate more than lows with time. When listening closer to speakers room sound as average is the same as before but now the direct sound gets louder in relation and various masking effects in hearing system suppresses "the room sound", sound from all directions within a time window. If you had artificial mouth that blows air and spits droplets on top of your speakers I bet it would further suppress the room sound and cause maximum attention to happen. Well, quite complicated subject and I'm not too familiar with psychoacoustics so won't go any further with the thought experiment

Whats my opinion for the topic? I have no expert level knowledge but based on basic observation there is two main things that affect I think: bad acoustics and playback system distortion. Ever been to an (relatively) empty room just talking to a person, or doing chores? very uncomfortable with the flutter echo and all, uneasy feeling, fatique without any stereo system at all. Ever listened your stereo system with the 85db average level? want to turn it down as it seems too loud? What if you go to a concert, say a small jazz ensemble playing completely acoustic. its likely you'll measure about 85db there as well as the band likes it because they are humans like you and they like it nice, but now it doesn't have much fatigue and I bet its due to distortion, and its sounds quite nice! Could be even louder! So, for home listening I bet many don't want it 85db as it probably sounds too loud because the system isn't likely capable of it with low enough distortion, and/or possibly poor acoustics of the room. "Fatigue" makes my subconcious to say "its too loud, turn it down" but as long as it's clean then yeah, the louder the better it sounds. If the material was mixed at 85db it is probably the sweet spot.

 

[sarumbear]

Whats my opinion for the topic? I have no expert level knowledge but based on basic observation there is two main things that affect I think: bad acoustics and playback system distortion.

Correct but irrelevant to the topic of "The treble level is reduced due to air attenuation" in a domestic size room.

 

[Astoneroad]

 

[dasdoing]

View attachment 271678

 

[Sined]

My system is very well balanced, my listening room is fine, no problem there, but yep, over a given level, it becomes much less enjoyable. I've given myself those non-scientific explanations to this volume level threshold issue.

1- My 67 years old ears... If the sound pressure level gets too high, my right ear starts distorting, something starts shaking inside! Very personal indeed, and I am certainly not an hearing expert, but it makes sense that our ears have a linear response up to a point and beyond that, they start suffering and then... good bye high-end hearing!

2- Room size and acoustic treatment (or lack of it): seems to define the actual SPL "capacity" of the room: higher is the level, louder are also the room reflections: the acoustic treatment may become insufficient for that level and it turns up to "too much of a good thing";

3- Bad recordings: as mentioned in the OP, if lows, mids and highs are not perfectly balanced, clean and natural, it adds a first layer to the other issues and of course, lowers the threshold;

4- Each "unplugged" instrument as a "characteristic output level". If this level is set to 2, 3, x times to what we are used to and known as "normal", then it is no longer an exact reproduction of the instrument and I guess this adds up a another layer of inconfort;

Finally, while talking SPL, I've noticed in audio shows that very often systems do not perform very well, even those that we know they should? Of course, those hotel rooms are far from being perfect, but so are our listening rooms: dealers, find another excuse! My two cents on this: I blame it largely on what we are currently discussing: too much SPL for the "room capacity". And worse, most of the time, to make their life easier (read: hide possible limitations of their systems), they use "easy to play" records like small acoustic jazz trios, imagine if they would use "demanding to play" records such as big band jazz orchestras with a lot of brass instruments? Same for live concerts, to my personal taste, often way too loud, it makes my right inner ear shaking!! Same for movies, why special effects have to be so loud compared to speech?

Seems that the loudness war is everywhere, or maybe I'm getting too old...

 

[MattHooper]

I've had to keep my listening levels pretty low for many years due to flair ups of tinnitus and hyperacusis.

I finally got treated for the hyperacusis - improved my condition a lot (though not totally cured). The upshot is I'm finally listening louder than I have for decades.
The negative is that now my wife complains about my music being too loud.

Sigh...one step forward, one backward...

 

[audiofooled]

In my experience, maximum subjectively preferred loudness level is mostly affected by dynamic compression.

 

[MRC01]

Another factor that hasn't yet been mentioned: when listening to acoustic music, the tone/timbre of the instruments depend on the proximity and loudness. When a high quality recording is played louder than that instrument would sound live, the tone sounds artificially enhanced, like a caricature of the instrument. Some people like this, but I don't. This also depends on the micing technique. For example, close-miced instruments can take on this artificial timbre at relatively quieter levels.

This is also a contributing factor toward why dynamic range compression makes acoustic music sound unnatural.

 

[MRC01]

Air does attenuate but it’s negligible for such small distances.

I'm not so sure. When I sit right next to violin in rehearsal, the tone is much brighter and zingier than it is when sitting just a couple of chairs away. Not just louder, but a significant difference in timbre/tone. My listener-speaker distance is roughly equal to that couple of chairs away metric.

 

[dasdoing]

I'm not so sure. When I sit right next to violin in rehearsal, the tone is much brighter and zingier than it is when sitting just a couple of chairs away. Not just louder, but a significant difference in timbre/tone. My listener-speaker distance is roughly equal to that couple of chairs away metric.

I play the congas and it always suprised me how diferent they sound when you play them, as opposed to when you are the listener.

ChatGPT

The speed at which sound attenuates in air depends on various factors such as frequency, distance traveled, temperature, humidity, and the presence of obstacles. Generally, high-frequency sounds are more attenuated by air than low-frequency sounds. In dry air at room temperature (around 20 degrees Celsius), sound waves at 1 kHz will attenuate by approximately 0.3 dB per meter, while sound waves at 10 kHz will attenuate by approximately 1.2 dB per meter.

However, this attenuation rate can vary widely depending on the conditions. For example, at higher temperatures or higher humidity levels, the attenuation rate can be higher. Additionally, if the sound wave encounters obstacles in its path, such as buildings or other structures, the attenuation rate can be affected by the reflection and scattering of the sound waves.

Overall, the attenuation of sound in air is a complex phenomenon that depends on many factors, and the attenuation rate can vary widely depending on the specific conditions.

1,2dB is a lot
Imagine at 3m

 

[Tom C]

I play the congas and it always suprised me how diferent they sound when you play them, as opposed to when you are the listener.

ChatGPT



1,2dB is a lot
Imagine at 3m

Thank you.

 

[sarumbear]

I'm not so sure. When I sit right next to violin in rehearsal, the tone is much brighter and zingier than it is when sitting just a couple of chairs away. Not just louder, but a significant difference in timbre/tone. My listener-speaker distance is roughly equal to that couple of chairs away metric.

Repeat the test in a dead room and you will understand.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Repeat the test in a dead room and you will understand.

Point being that it's not negligible in a normal room.
A dead room is not normal.

 

[sarumbear]

Point being that it's not negligible in a normal room.
A dead room is not normal.

Point being is that you are missing my point. The difference you hear is the change in the mix of direct and indirect sound (reflections) when you move away from the source. In a dead room there is little indirect sound hence the mix doesn't change and you hear the same timbre.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Point being is that you are missing my point. The difference you hear is the change in the mix of direct and indirect sound (reflections) when you move away from the source. In a dead room there is little indirect sound hence the mix doesn't change and you hear the same timbre.

Yes, but this isn't something that happens in my room. You are right, but in the context I don't see the relevance.

 

[sarumbear]

Yes, but this isn't something that happens in my room. You are right, but in the context I don't see the relevance.

The context is my answer to post #31 which was posted by @MRC01. I do not even know what your context is but thank you for confirming my point

 

[Philbo King]

In live venues I prefer 85 dBZ on peaks, which is why I have earplugs in all my coats and in the car.
For extended listening (studio mixing work) it's 65 dB.
Loudness can mask poor live performances and deficiencies in playback systems, though it's useful for drowning out audience chatter.

 

[dasdoing]

It's essential that we accept new information

 

[sarumbear]

In live venues I prefer 85 dBZ on peaks, which is why I have earplugs in all my coats and in the car.
For extended listening (studio mixing work) it's 65 dB.
Loudness can mask poor live performances and deficiencies in playback systems, though it's useful for drowning out audience chatter.

Live venues are often are at 110-115dBSPL.

65dBSPL is a very low level. It’s almost the same as produced by air conditioning or conversation. It will be difficult to hear everything.

 

[antcollinet]

Live venues are often are at 110-115dBSPL.

65dBSPL is a very low level. It’s almost the same as produced by air conditioning or conversation. It will be difficult to hear everything.

I hope not - hearing loss possible in two minutes at those levels.

Speaking as a lifelong sufferer of tinnitus caused by a motorhead concert in 1982.