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Maximum subjectively preferred loudness level

edechamps

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If you're like me, when you listen to music (or TV/movies or any other content), you will increase the volume to the maximum level that still sounds good. It's well known that, in general "louder" is perceived as "better". But I think everyone would agree that this is only true up to a point. There is always a point where increasing the volume further makes the sound less appealing and more… annoying, "aggressive", "shouty" or whatever you want to call it.

From a psychoacoustical perspective, for a given piece of content, how is this "maximum subjectively preferred loudness level" determined? What makes us want to turn down the volume?

(Note that for the remaining of this discussion, I am assuming that we are not discussing levels so high as to get physically uncomfortable (i.e. close to pain threshold and the like). I think it's already quite obvious why someone would not want to push the volume past such limits.)

Intuitively, the most straightforward theory is that when we perceive something as "too loud" it is because the playback system is being driven into clipping. (By "clipping" here I mean any kind of non-linear distortion that increases quickly above a certain playback level threshold, including compression.) Clipping degrades the audio quality (duh), making the stimuli less pleasant and compelling the listener to turn down the volume to get a more enjoyable sound.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen - clearly, if you run into clipping you're gonna have a Bad Time and you'll want to turn the volume down.

However, in my experience clipping alone doesn't explain all instances where we perceive something as "too loud".

In particular, I often tend to notice (and obviously this is very subjective and anecdotal) that this "maximum subjectively preferred loudness level" tends to be significantly higher on systems that have better frequency response. One especially telling example is that I'm happy to listen to properly room EQ'd systems much louder than I would without EQ. This leads me to suspect that this is not just about clipping or non-linear distortion (in fact room EQ would tend to reduce headroom) - the frequency response of the system plays a role as well.

I was comforted in this view when I ran an experiment whereby I recorded "reasonably loud" as well as "uncomfortably loud" music played back through my speakers to a microphone, and then level-matched the recordings and ABX'd them through headphones. I was unable to distinguish between them, which proved no clipping/compression was taking place and that system non-linearities could be ruled out as a factor in my perception of excessive loudness. (This was a very useful experiment by the way, because it convinced me that the peak SPL of my speakers was perfectly fine and that there was no need to upgrade them.)

I would like to put forth an hypothesis, which is that we perceive something as "too loud" when the peaks in the signal spectrum are too loud. This would explain why a non-EQ'd system with a poor frequency response sounds runs into "too loud" territory quicker as one turns up the volume - it's because the peaks (i.e. the resonances) in the irregular frequency response get too loud, creating a "perceptual loudness bottleneck" preventing the rest of the spectrum from being turned up higher. This would be consistent with the well-known fact that we are more susceptible to peaks in the frequency response.

This problem can be caused by a problematic playback system, but of course these peaks could be in the source material too. Such poor recordings will sound unpleasant when pushed too loud, whereas properly made recordings free of resonances can be enjoyed at higher volume.

I wonder if anyone is aware of any research that looked at this question? Namely the factors that contribute to the "maximum subjectively preferred loudness level" for audio reproduction.

If my hypothesis is correct, this has implications with regard to the advice that should be given to someone who complains that their system don't produce enjoyable sound at high levels. I get the impression that the standard approach to this question (on ASR and elsewhere) is to assume clipping and recommend equipment capable of higher SPL levels. But I'm really sceptical this is the right approach in all (or even the majority) of cases, and that many such cases have more to do with frequency response and source material quality instead.
 

Inner Space

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I think the limit on volume levels for sound systems in a room has to do with the room interference, and not the absolute volume level itself.
This is exactly my conclusion too, based on decades of observation. I would narrow it further, to the 3k - 5k region of maximum sensitivity. When the room "overloads" there, the result is universally unpleasant. Spec the system so that headroom is king, treat your room extensively, and you're golden.
 
OP
edechamps

edechamps

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I think the limit on volume levels for sound systems in a room has to do with the room interference, and not the absolute volume level itself.

The effect of a room on system performance has much to do with frequency response, so this is quite consistent with my hypothesis. (Though obviously, at equal drive level, any speaker will sound much louder in a room than outside due to room reflections keeping the energy in.)

Also, I should have mentioned in my original post that I'm only concerned with indoor systems, and what makes different systems or different sources sound "too loud" at different thresholds. I don't think comparisons with outdoor systems are very interesting (who listens to their system outdoors?)
 

DVDdoug

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Bob Katz' K-System proposal says:

Over 1000 convention attendees filled the theatre center section. At the end of the demonstration, Tom asked for a show of hands. “How many of you thought the sound was too loud?” About 4 hands were raised. “How many thought it was too soft?” No hands. “How many thought it was just right?” At least 996 audio engineers raised their hands. This is an incredible testament to the effectiveness of the 85dB at 0 VU standard originally proposed by Dolby's Ioan Allen in the mid-70's.

ReplyGain uses a standard of 89dB (assuming people are listening at 89dB).

Of course, if you like the particular music you are going to turn it up. If your mom hates heavy metal it's going to sound too loud to her even if she likes her music at the same volume. ;)

Personally, I like louder music in a larger room than a smaller room. After a short period of time "realistic live levels" feel uncomfortable to me in my living room.

I also suspect "louder is better" can be misinterpreted... If you ask someone if speaker A sounds better than speaker B, and the only difference is loudness, they might say the louder speaker "sounds better" even if it's louder than they would prefer to listen. They might choose the louder speaker and then turn it down in actual use.

I would like to put forth an hypothesis, which is that we perceive something as "too loud" when the peaks in the signal spectrum are too loud.
I get the opposite impression. With more-dynamic music I like to turn it up and with more-compressed music I like to turn it down. Constantly-loud sound gets boring or annoying whereas occasional loud transient peaks sound good to me. And they don't have to be that occasional... A strong drum hit every measure sounds better than when everything is the same level and nothing stands-out.
 
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edechamps

edechamps

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Personally, I like louder music in a larger room than a smaller room. After a short period of time "realistic live levels" feel uncomfortable to me in my living room.

Still consistent with my frequency response hypothesis :) Smaller rooms tend to have more frequency response issues (modal resonances making the room "boomy", less diffuse field, etc.)

I get the opposite impression. With more-dynamic music I like to turn it up and with more-compressed music I like to turn it down. Constantly-loud sound gets boring or annoying whereas occasional loud transient peaks sound good to me.

I think there is a misunderstanding. I was referring to peaks in signal spectrum (frequency domain), not peaks in signal waveform (time domain). My hypothesis has nothing to do with transients or dynamics.
 

sarumbear

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If you're like me, when you listen to music (or TV/movies or any other content), you will increase the volume to the maximum level that still sounds good. It's well known that, in general "louder" is perceived as "better". But I think everyone would agree that this is only true up to a point. There is always a point where increasing the volume further makes the sound less appealing and more… annoying, "aggressive", "shouty" or whatever you want to call it.

From a psychoacoustical perspective, for a given piece of content, how is this "maximum subjectively preferred loudness level" determined? What makes us want to turn down the volume?

(Note that for the remaining of this discussion, I am assuming that we are not discussing levels so high as to get physically uncomfortable (i.e. close to pain threshold and the like). I think it's already quite obvious why someone would not want to push the volume past such limits.)

Intuitively, the most straightforward theory is that when we perceive something as "too loud" it is because the playback system is being driven into clipping. (By "clipping" here I mean any kind of non-linear distortion that increases quickly above a certain playback level threshold, including compression.) Clipping degrades the audio quality (duh), making the stimuli less pleasant and compelling the listener to turn down the volume to get a more enjoyable sound.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen - clearly, if you run into clipping you're gonna have a Bad Time and you'll want to turn the volume down.

However, in my experience clipping alone doesn't explain all instances where we perceive something as "too loud".

In particular, I often tend to notice (and obviously this is very subjective and anecdotal) that this "maximum subjectively preferred loudness level" tends to be significantly higher on systems that have better frequency response. One especially telling example is that I'm happy to listen to properly room EQ'd systems much louder than I would without EQ. This leads me to suspect that this is not just about clipping or non-linear distortion (in fact room EQ would tend to reduce headroom) - the frequency response of the system plays a role as well.

I was comforted in this view when I ran an experiment whereby I recorded "reasonably loud" as well as "uncomfortably loud" music played back through my speakers to a microphone, and then level-matched the recordings and ABX'd them through headphones. I was unable to distinguish between them, which proved no clipping/compression was taking place and that system non-linearities could be ruled out as a factor in my perception of excessive loudness. (This was a very useful experiment by the way, because it convinced me that the peak SPL of my speakers was perfectly fine and that there was no need to upgrade them.)

I would like to put forth an hypothesis, which is that we perceive something as "too loud" when the peaks in the signal spectrum are too loud. This would explain why a non-EQ'd system with a poor frequency response sounds runs into "too loud" territory quicker as one turns up the volume - it's because the peaks (i.e. the resonances) in the irregular frequency response get too loud, creating a "perceptual loudness bottleneck" preventing the rest of the spectrum from being turned up higher. This would be consistent with the well-known fact that we are more susceptible to peaks in the frequency response.

This problem can be caused by a problematic playback system, but of course these peaks could be in the source material too. Such poor recordings will sound unpleasant when pushed too loud, whereas properly made recordings free of resonances can be enjoyed at higher volume.

I wonder if anyone is aware of any research that looked at this question? Namely the factors that contribute to the "maximum subjectively preferred loudness level" for audio reproduction.

If my hypothesis is correct, this has implications with regard to the advice that should be given to someone who complains that their system don't produce enjoyable sound at high levels. I get the impression that the standard approach to this question (on ASR and elsewhere) is to assume clipping and recommend equipment capable of higher SPL levels. But I'm really sceptical this is the right approach in all (or even the majority) of cases, and that many such cases have more to do with frequency response and source material quality instead.
I don’t think there such a level that fits every person. I discussed this on my post here.
 

DVDdoug

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I think there is a misunderstanding. I was referring to peaks in signal spectrum (frequency domain), not peaks in signal waveform (time domain). My hypothesis has nothing to do with transients or dynamics.
OK, that makes sense. If you have a "bad mix" with poor frequency balance or a playback system (and/or room) with bad frequency response you'll probably want to turn it down... or turn it off! If you've got good sound and you're enjoying it, you might want to turn it up.
 

abdo123

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I've been to rock concerts with 100 dB(A) average levels, it's always a good time but the high frequency linearity of line arrays is non-existent and while it was annoying to hear weird phase things the overall the overall experience is very good and I'm pretty sure i'm not the only person.

So my guess is

1) how much you like the material.

2) how loud your speakers can get before they hit -20dB/10% THD

3) how well behaved the room is.
 

RayDunzl

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Per REW and UMIK-1, 85dB Lzeq with 105dB peaks at 10 feet, if Audio Buddy and I are rocking out for a bit with the big rig.

TV talk show at the moment is reading 64/78, with the TV internal speakers.

The MartinLogans don't "spray the room", and the TV isn't loud enough te excite annoyances.
 

bennetng

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@edechamps A simple example:
One of the attached files contains only tones, and another one has a tiny click in the middle of the file. You can try to ABX them and try to find out at what volume level you can easily ABX the files. I myself tried it. If the volume is too low or too high (yes, quite arbitrary and perhaps vague) I can no longer ABX them. Which I can say for these two files there is an optimal range for highest perceptual acuity. To extrapolate this, depends on the frequency content (tonal vs transient) the optimal listening level can vary to a certain degree, and not simple single number like LUFS, DR and such can easily describe.
This video presented by a developer of the Opus lossy codec is an interesting reference as well:
 

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Hmast

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There's something that wasn't discussed here and should: it is different to listen to music at 85dB SPL at 5 meters away from the speakers compared to 85dB at 1 meter. Or your this topic implies we listen to music outdoors or in anechoic chamber.
 

sarumbear

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There's something that wasn't discussed here and should: it is different to listen to music at 85dB SPL at 5 meters away from the speakers compared to 85dB at 1 meter. Or your this topic implies we listen to music outdoors or in anechoic chamber.
It’s the SPL at your ears. Why would the distance matter?
 

Hmast

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I know it sounds weird but when I’m home, I listen to the speakers with an SPL meter.

Although the frequency response is flat at 1 meter and 5 meters thanks to the GLM kit, I find that listening to the music at 5 meters is more fun. I can’t really explain why. It’s like I can feel the music, yet the SPL pressure is the same so… how can we explain that?
 

sarumbear

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I know it sounds weird but when I’m home, I listen to the speakers with an SPL meter.

Although the frequency response is flat at 1 meter and 5 meters thanks to the GLM kit, I find that listening to the music at 5 meters is more fun. I can’t really explain why. It’s like I can feel the music, yet the SPL pressure is the same so… how can we explain that?
Try to understand why we SINAD has multiple FR curves.
 

Tom C

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I believe with greater distance:
The treble level is reduced due to air attenuation
The composition of the sound arriving at the listener‘s ear has more of the room reflections and less of the direct sound, compared to listening at a closer distance to the speakers.
 

sarumbear

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I believe with greater distance:
The treble level is reduced due to air attenuation
The composition of the sound arriving at the listener‘s ear has more of the room reflections and less of the direct sound, compared to listening at a closer distance to the speakers.
The 1st one is not correct but the 2nd one is spot on.
 

Tom C

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Can you explain further? It is the takeaway I have from reading Dr. F. Toole’s papers and book. Air attenuation affects the treble more than the remainder of the spectrum. Most PA speakers have a treble boost. I thought that was the reason, since PA is intended to be listened to at some distance.
 

sarumbear

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Air does attenuate but it’s negligible for such small distances.
 

Keith_W

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Bob Katz' K-System proposal says:

Over 1000 convention attendees filled the theatre center section. At the end of the demonstration, Tom asked for a show of hands. “How many of you thought the sound was too loud?” About 4 hands were raised. “How many thought it was too soft?” No hands. “How many thought it was just right?” At least 996 audio engineers raised their hands. This is an incredible testament to the effectiveness of the 85dB at 0 VU standard originally proposed by Dolby's Ioan Allen in the mid-70's.

This anecdote makes me wonder how Bob Katz was able to achieve a uniform 85dB over an audience with 1000 people in it. He must be using a PA system, because if he was using a 2 channel system on the stage, the SPL would drop off by 3dB every meter meaning the people in front would be hearing a different SPL to people at the back. A much superior experiment would be to allow a bunch of listeners to listen individually and adjust the volume to their preference and see if there is a cluster of preferences.

Speaking for myself, I listen only to classical music so I turn the volume to whatever sounds the most realistic for me. It's a bit lower than 85dB, I prefer 75-80dB. However, large symphonic works can sometimes be quite visceral, so I turn it up to hear the impact. The OP does have a point though - at some point the clarity of the performance goes down at either extremes of volume, or I might notice a problem frequency peak that irritates me so I turn it back down. It has never occurred to me to get my SPL meter out to see what volume this is. I'll try it tomorrow because I will wake the whole neighbourhood up if I tried it right now.
 
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