Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Doodski]

My wife insists on buying virgin olive oil, while I'm happy with cheap vegetable oil.
She insists that she can taste the difference, but I'm not convinced.
I'm tempted to insist that we do a blind taste test, but that's never going to happen.

I can't believe I'm gabbing about cooking oil @ ASR but here I go... I only cook my eggs in salted butter because butter is the de factO best for eggs. But... if you want to try a taste test cook eggs in olive oil and then in canola oil and taste test the difference. It will be obvious. The olive oil has a nutty, fruity and stronger taste that really accentuates many foods especially pasta and tomato meat sauce... drOOL... I gotta stop or I'm going to be making a big Italian lunch (again). Italian is my first love and 2nd is Chinese food.

Perhaps we're condemned to ignorance, but in truth it really doesn't matter that much.
And making the right HiFi choice isn't going to save anyone's life, either.

I disagree because music and the resulting hi-fi equipment that enables people to listen anywhere has saved lives. I've seen it happen and it also relieves stress and some songs are a wealth of knowledge and ideas that make people better for listening to it. Without good hi-fi choices none of this would be possible.

 

[Tassin]

My wife insists on buying virgin olive oil, while I'm happy with cheap vegetable oil.
She insists that she can taste the difference, but I'm not convinced.

I once met a guy who tasted olive oil like a wine connoisseur. Wouldn't really believe it at first, but then he demonstrated his skills. He was blindfolded and tasted different olive oils and managed to describe exactly what kind of olive oils each was and ... he also gave a correct estimation of the price tags of every oil. Someway similar to trained vs untrained ears.

It might be more difficult to taste the difference if you live in the US, as over there any blended oil containing 51% olive oil can be labeled as such. Whereas in EU it must be 100% olive oil.

 

[wideopensource]

Olive oil certainly tastes different to others because, well, they are different. The analogy is better put by opining about whether or not a neutral oil has better fidelity.

 

[Mulder]

We are still alive as a species and now dominate the planet. How much more reliable do you want? We invented the scientific method. We invented science as a means to further and refine our understanding of certain aspects of the world in which we evolved. And to enjoy music whenever we want to, obviously.

Nothing I wrote could be construed to mean I reject science or technological progress, or much less the new information they provide us about the world and ourselves. Quite the opposite. They are very effective tools that we in all our fallibility invented.

Well, snakes, snails, ants and rats for example are also still alive as species, so what is your point?

 

[john11]

Holy shit we've caught a live one.

And we are confused why he thinks adding a single random capacitor to an audible (close to) perfect amp is going to make a difference?

I am not talking about the amplifier, i am talking about the power supply, please stay awake

 

[Doodski]

I am not talking about the amplifier, i am talking about the power supply, please stay awake

Howdy @john11. I know what you are doing in your power supply MOD endeavor. You are tweaking the audio path power output linearity in attempt to better control the transducers and get more bettah sound. I don't know what you know technically about the MOD but it can affect the sound in some situations and designs that can benefit from this sort of power supply design MOD. It also depends on the mains transformer and the diode bridge too and just the capacitor alone is not the overall best methodology. So... you are partially there on the MOD although missing a bit of the special sauce required for the recipe. Nice attempt though. The real issue with this MOD is that it is very difficult to get a suitable MOD mains power transformer that can allow the capacitor MOD to fully work and make for better output power linearity at the unity gain stage or also known as the current amplification stage of the audio amplifier circuitry. Maybe... maybe you might like designing power supplies for 6 months or so, assemble some and then use them in your amp MODs. It costs money because this section of an audio amp is where a large proportion of the overall cost of an audio amp is but it is very rewarding to have a very cool power supply. Or just buy a beasty linear power output amplifier and you will be guaranteed a beasty power supply will be in it. I am talking about linear power supplies and not pulse width modulation types because linear supplies are wayyyy easier to design and build.

 

[SIY]

Howdy @john11. I know what you are doing in your power supply MOD endeavor. You are tweaking the audio path power output linearity in attempt to better control the transducers and get more bettah sound. I don't know what you know technically about the MOD but it can affect the sound in some situations and designs that can benefit from this sort of power supply design MOD. It also depends on the mains transformer and the diode bridge too and just the capacitor alone is not the overall best methodology. So... you are partially there on the MOD although missing a bit of the special sauce required for the recipe. Nice attempt though. The real issue with this MOD is that it is very difficult to get a suitable MOD mains power transformer that can allow the capacitor MOD to fully work and make for better output power linearity at the unity gain stage or also known as the current amplification stage of the audio amplifier circuitry. Maybe... maybe you might like designing power supplies for 6 months or so, assemble some and then use them in your amp MODs. It costs money because this section of an audio amp is where a large proportion of the overall cost of an audio amp is but it is very rewarding to have a very cool power supply. Or just buy a beasty linear power output amplifier and you will be guaranteed a beasty power supply will be in it. I am talking about linear power supplies and not pulse width modulation types because linear supplies are wayyyy easier to design and build.

The problem with ignorant power supply modding is that engineering considerations are ignored and the final result can end up being worse overall for the system performance. This is especially true for adding filter capacitance- this has some really bad effects which are cheerfully ignored. I remember an article in Audio some decades back recommending large cap banks, which then became fashionable. What no-one amongst the ignorati paid attention to was the massively increased peak charging currents and that effect on rectifier reliability and radiated noise.

 

[BDWoody]

What i am trying to do is help people,

But you aren't.

You do realize that the people you are arguing with actually know what they are talking about?

We could encourage him to relax and accept some knowledge that he can acquire here @ ASR so he can grow.

Hope springs eternal!

 

[Doodski]

The problem with ignorant power supply modding is that engineering considerations are ignored and the final result can end up being worse overall for the system performance. This is especially true for adding filter capacitance- this has some really bad effects which are cheerfully ignored. I remember an article in Audio some decades back recommending large cap banks, which then became fashionable. What no-one amongst the ignorati paid attention to was the massively increased peak charging currents and that effect on rectifier reliability and radiated noise.

I have noticed in some very nice power amps that 10K micro Farad at X voltage is sufficient for lotsa power output at the speaker connection. So I am onboard with you.

 

[martinw72]

Hi everyone

I like this kind of discussion. It shows how important it is to have a discussion about tuning and optimisation. The interesting thing here is that 99% of what is discussed is true, even if there are opposiing opinions.
Do you hear differences between an audiophile network switch and a cheap switch for home networks. Yes and no, for two reasons. Firstly, because you want to hear it, especially if you're about to swap a $100 switch for a $5000 switch.
Secondly, because you listen to music for a very long time with good hi-fi chains and compare them again and again. It's easy to explain, and it works like any kind of training. You get better.
Think of it like tasting wine. At first it's hard to tell whether it's red or white when you're blindfolded. But the longer you study wine, the more you learn to recognise the differences and eventually you get to the point where you can really tell the grapes from which the wine is made very reliably.

However, it is easy to explain why the chain does play a role for some people. The cause of all this evil is the conversion from digital to analogue. If we could hear digitally, i.e. translate the zeros and ones in our head, then our head would be the D/A converter and would decide on the quality we hear.
But that is not the case. We listen to analogue and the DA converter in our music system decides what we hear. And like all components, a DA converter does not exhibit perfect behaviour. There are effects such as ringing, noise,... The digital signal is also not a perfect rectangle (voltage off = digital 1 and no voltage on = 0), but at least rounded at the corners and the edges have an angle that deviates from 90 degrees (the perfect rectangle).
Without going into too much detail, the DA converter must recognise when the zero becomes a one. Since the edges are not completely vertical and there is also analogue noise superimposed on the digital signal. The edges are not always recognised at exactly the same time. This sometimes throws the DA converter off course and leads to a tone sequence (frequency response) consisting not only of the digital signal, but also being influenced to some extent by dirt in the digital signal. There are of course many tricks to keep the signal as clean as possible. For example, by rebuilding the signal and removing dirt from it again before DA conversion, but even then mistakes happen. Depending on what the dirt looks like, you will hear it more or less, depending on the chain, the time of day, the number of interfering signals, mobile phones, WLAN and of course the listener!
Finally, a particularly "nasty" source of errors in DA conversion. Direct current, as used for PoE (Power over Ethernet), i.e. power supply via the mains. If a direct current component now reaches the DA converter, this shifts the edge detection (transition from 0 to 1) and the analogue music signal suffers particularly badly as a result.
I'm already looking forward to your replies.

 

[Doodski]

Hi everyone

I like this kind of discussion. It shows how important it is to have a discussion about tuning and optimisation. The interesting thing here is that 99% of what is discussed is true, even if there are opposiing opinions.
Do you hear differences between an audiophile network switch and a cheap switch for home networks. Yes and no, for two reasons. Firstly, because you want to hear it, especially if you're about to swap a $100 switch for a $5000 switch.
Secondly, because you listen to music for a very long time with good hi-fi chains and compare them again and again. It's easy to explain, and it works like any kind of training. You get better.
Think of it like tasting wine. At first it's hard to tell whether it's red or white when you're blindfolded. But the longer you study wine, the more you learn to recognise the differences and eventually you get to the point where you can really tell the grapes from which the wine is made very reliably.

However, it is easy to explain why the chain does play a role for some people. The cause of all this evil is the conversion from digital to analogue. If we could hear digitally, i.e. translate the zeros and ones in our head, then our head would be the D/A converter and would decide on the quality we hear.
But that is not the case. We listen to analogue and the DA converter in our music system decides what we hear. And like all components, a DA converter does not exhibit perfect behaviour. There are effects such as ringing, noise,... The digital signal is also not a perfect rectangle (voltage off = digital 1 and no voltage on = 0), but at least rounded at the corners and the edges have an angle that deviates from 90 degrees (the perfect rectangle).
Without going into too much detail, the DA converter must recognise when the zero becomes a one. Since the edges are not completely vertical and there is also analogue noise superimposed on the digital signal. The edges are not always recognised at exactly the same time. This sometimes throws the DA converter off course and leads to a tone sequence (frequency response) consisting not only of the digital signal, but also being influenced to some extent by dirt in the digital signal. There are of course many tricks to keep the signal as clean as possible. For example, by rebuilding the signal and removing dirt from it again before DA conversion, but even then mistakes happen. Depending on what the dirt looks like, you will hear it more or less, depending on the chain, the time of day, the number of interfering signals, mobile phones, WLAN and of course the listener!
Finally, a particularly "nasty" source of errors in DA conversion. Direct current, as used for PoE (Power over Ethernet), i.e. power supply via the mains. If a direct current component now reaches the DA converter, this shifts the edge detection (transition from 0 to 1) and the analogue music signal suffers particularly badly as a result.
I'm already looking forward to your replies.

I was taught in the digital fundamentals study that the indecisive state of detection of the waveform leading and trailing edge detection is a solved problem. <?>

 

[welwynnick]

But that is not the case. We listen to analogue and the DA converter in our music system decides what we hear. And like all components, a DA converter does not exhibit perfect behaviour. There are effects such as ringing, noise,... The digital signal is also not a perfect rectangle (voltage off = digital 1 and no voltage on = 0), but at least rounded at the corners and the edges have an angle that deviates from 90 degrees (the perfect rectangle).
Without going into too much detail, the DA converter must recognise when the zero becomes a one. Since the edges are not completely vertical and there is also analogue noise superimposed on the digital signal. The edges are not always recognised at exactly the same time. This sometimes throws the DA converter off course and leads to a tone sequence (frequency response) consisting not only of the digital signal, but also being influenced to some extent by dirt in the digital signal. There are of course many tricks to keep the signal as clean as possible. For example, by rebuilding the signal and removing dirt from it again before DA conversion, but even then mistakes happen. Depending on what the dirt looks like, you will hear it more or less, depending on the chain, the time of day, the number of interfering signals, mobile phones, WLAN and of course the listener!

Welcome to the forum.
Are you trying to describe the causes and effects of jitter without actually using the word itself?
This is somenthing that Amir measures in his DAC tests. Have you seen those measurements?
It's been a recognised problem for a long time, but these days the best DACs seem to have gotten over the problem entirely.

 

[BDWoody]

I'm already looking forward to your replies.

Welcome! I moved your post to this thread, as I think it will be more appropriately discussed here.

Buckle up, it may not be what you're expecting, but if you want to climb up the learning curve this is the place to be.

 

[Beave]

Hi everyone

I like this kind of discussion. It shows how important it is to have a discussion about tuning and optimisation. The interesting thing here is that 99% of what is discussed is true, even if there are opposiing opinions.
Do you hear differences between an audiophile network switch and a cheap switch for home networks. Yes and no, for two reasons. Firstly, because you want to hear it, especially if you're about to swap a $100 switch for a $5000 switch.
Secondly, because you listen to music for a very long time with good hi-fi chains and compare them again and again. It's easy to explain, and it works like any kind of training. You get better.
Think of it like tasting wine. At first it's hard to tell whether it's red or white when you're blindfolded. But the longer you study wine, the more you learn to recognise the differences and eventually you get to the point where you can really tell the grapes from which the wine is made very reliably.

However, it is easy to explain why the chain does play a role for some people. The cause of all this evil is the conversion from digital to analogue. If we could hear digitally, i.e. translate the zeros and ones in our head, then our head would be the D/A converter and would decide on the quality we hear.
But that is not the case. We listen to analogue and the DA converter in our music system decides what we hear. And like all components, a DA converter does not exhibit perfect behaviour. There are effects such as ringing, noise,... The digital signal is also not a perfect rectangle (voltage off = digital 1 and no voltage on = 0), but at least rounded at the corners and the edges have an angle that deviates from 90 degrees (the perfect rectangle).
Without going into too much detail, the DA converter must recognise when the zero becomes a one. Since the edges are not completely vertical and there is also analogue noise superimposed on the digital signal. The edges are not always recognised at exactly the same time. This sometimes throws the DA converter off course and leads to a tone sequence (frequency response) consisting not only of the digital signal, but also being influenced to some extent by dirt in the digital signal. There are of course many tricks to keep the signal as clean as possible. For example, by rebuilding the signal and removing dirt from it again before DA conversion, but even then mistakes happen. Depending on what the dirt looks like, you will hear it more or less, depending on the chain, the time of day, the number of interfering signals, mobile phones, WLAN and of course the listener!
Finally, a particularly "nasty" source of errors in DA conversion. Direct current, as used for PoE (Power over Ethernet), i.e. power supply via the mains. If a direct current component now reaches the DA converter, this shifts the edge detection (transition from 0 to 1) and the analogue music signal suffers particularly badly as a result.
I'm already looking forward to your replies.

Surely you can't be serious.

(I am serious, and don't call me shirley).

 

[SIY]

Hi everyone

I like this kind of discussion. It shows how important it is to have a discussion about tuning and optimisation. The interesting thing here is that 99% of what is discussed is true, even if there are opposiing opinions.
Do you hear differences between an audiophile network switch and a cheap switch for home networks. Yes and no, for two reasons. Firstly, because you want to hear it, especially if you're about to swap a $100 switch for a $5000 switch.
Secondly, because you listen to music for a very long time with good hi-fi chains and compare them again and again. It's easy to explain, and it works like any kind of training. You get better.
Think of it like tasting wine. At first it's hard to tell whether it's red or white when you're blindfolded. But the longer you study wine, the more you learn to recognise the differences and eventually you get to the point where you can really tell the grapes from which the wine is made very reliably.

However, it is easy to explain why the chain does play a role for some people. The cause of all this evil is the conversion from digital to analogue. If we could hear digitally, i.e. translate the zeros and ones in our head, then our head would be the D/A converter and would decide on the quality we hear.
But that is not the case. We listen to analogue and the DA converter in our music system decides what we hear. And like all components, a DA converter does not exhibit perfect behaviour. There are effects such as ringing, noise,... The digital signal is also not a perfect rectangle (voltage off = digital 1 and no voltage on = 0), but at least rounded at the corners and the edges have an angle that deviates from 90 degrees (the perfect rectangle).
Without going into too much detail, the DA converter must recognise when the zero becomes a one. Since the edges are not completely vertical and there is also analogue noise superimposed on the digital signal. The edges are not always recognised at exactly the same time. This sometimes throws the DA converter off course and leads to a tone sequence (frequency response) consisting not only of the digital signal, but also being influenced to some extent by dirt in the digital signal. There are of course many tricks to keep the signal as clean as possible. For example, by rebuilding the signal and removing dirt from it again before DA conversion, but even then mistakes happen. Depending on what the dirt looks like, you will hear it more or less, depending on the chain, the time of day, the number of interfering signals, mobile phones, WLAN and of course the listener!
Finally, a particularly "nasty" source of errors in DA conversion. Direct current, as used for PoE (Power over Ethernet), i.e. power supply via the mains. If a direct current component now reaches the DA converter, this shifts the edge detection (transition from 0 to 1) and the analogue music signal suffers particularly badly as a result.
I'm already looking forward to your replies.

Someone has stuffed your head with FUD. Strong advice, forget everything you think you know, and look closely at the TONS of measurements on D/A converters here that would trivially show any effects of imperfect digital transmission and reception. They don't because this is stuff that's been accounted for in digital design for, ohhhh, maybe 40 years.

 

[Talisman]

Hi everyone

I like this kind of discussion. It shows how important it is to have a discussion about tuning and optimisation. The interesting thing here is that 99% of what is discussed is true, even if there are opposiing opinions.
Do you hear differences between an audiophile network switch and a cheap switch for home networks. Yes and no, for two reasons. Firstly, because you want to hear it, especially if you're about to swap a $100 switch for a $5000 switch.
Secondly, because you listen to music for a very long time with good hi-fi chains and compare them again and again. It's easy to explain, and it works like any kind of training. You get better.
Think of it like tasting wine. At first it's hard to tell whether it's red or white when you're blindfolded. But the longer you study wine, the more you learn to recognise the differences and eventually you get to the point where you can really tell the grapes from which the wine is made very reliably.

However, it is easy to explain why the chain does play a role for some people. The cause of all this evil is the conversion from digital to analogue. If we could hear digitally, i.e. translate the zeros and ones in our head, then our head would be the D/A converter and would decide on the quality we hear.
But that is not the case. We listen to analogue and the DA converter in our music system decides what we hear. And like all components, a DA converter does not exhibit perfect behaviour. There are effects such as ringing, noise,... The digital signal is also not a perfect rectangle (voltage off = digital 1 and no voltage on = 0), but at least rounded at the corners and the edges have an angle that deviates from 90 degrees (the perfect rectangle).
Without going into too much detail, the DA converter must recognise when the zero becomes a one. Since the edges are not completely vertical and there is also analogue noise superimposed on the digital signal. The edges are not always recognised at exactly the same time. This sometimes throws the DA converter off course and leads to a tone sequence (frequency response) consisting not only of the digital signal, but also being influenced to some extent by dirt in the digital signal. There are of course many tricks to keep the signal as clean as possible. For example, by rebuilding the signal and removing dirt from it again before DA conversion, but even then mistakes happen. Depending on what the dirt looks like, you will hear it more or less, depending on the chain, the time of day, the number of interfering signals, mobile phones, WLAN and of course the listener!
Finally, a particularly "nasty" source of errors in DA conversion. Direct current, as used for PoE (Power over Ethernet), i.e. power supply via the mains. If a direct current component now reaches the DA converter, this shifts the edge detection (transition from 0 to 1) and the analogue music signal suffers particularly badly as a result.
I'm already looking forward to your replies.

Unfortunately, for a lifetime you have frequented environments in which these "doubts" are filled with terms that have no scientific meaning and interpreted with an aura of mystery, suggesting that behind this arduous task (the D/A conversion) there is who knows what incredible feat which the very expensive audiophile DACs solve with an almost alchemical magic.
Now you have entered the wolf's den with all the good will in the world trying to explain away your doubts fueled by a lifetime of legends. Please do not immediately become defensive about the answers you will receive, here you will simply find a myriad of real technical experts (not forum gurus) who will be able to explain to you and have already explained in detail why what you think you know is not real, it is simply a problem that doesn't exist.
It may seem difficult initially to have to question the certainties nurtured by years of audiophile forums, but try to follow the technical discussions and use your logic and the journey towards a more rational and less magical (and much less wasteful) world will be wonderful.
Welcome

 

[Killingbeans]

The digital signal is also not a perfect rectangle (voltage off = digital 1 and no voltage on = 0), but at least rounded at the corners and the edges have an angle that deviates from 90 degrees (the perfect rectangle).

Not really a problem. Digital systems detect binary values by thresholds and not by absolute levels.

Stop grabbing your knowledge from marketing blurbs and read some proper educational textbooks about digital technology instead.

EDIT: If you're talking about the non-perfect square waves coming out of the requantizer inside a delta-sigma DAC, then that's not really a problem either. It's all taking place way above the upper frequency limit of human hearing, and the output filter snubs it anyway.

 

[Doodski]

@martinw72 refer to pages, 21 Logic Levels, 21 The Pulse and Page 22 The Pulse for the related details and terminology used regarding what you mentioned.
The waveform indecisive level of voltage @ the square wave is a solved problem.
So you can delete that from your brain and make room for new and improved proper stuff...LoL. .

https://bpcbirgunj.edu.np/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/DIGITAL_ELECTRONICS-by-Flyod.pdf

 

[welwynnick]

That's a harsh reception everyone. Is that how you always greet people?

Not really a problem. Digital systems detect binary values by thresholds and not by absolute levels.

I don't think the post was about binary values so much as transistion timing, because he says:

the DA converter must recognise when the zero becomes a one.

 

[welwynnick]

Everyone says that jitter is a solved problem - and it should be solved - but I've yet to see anything with HDMI measure like a good stereo DAC.