Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[BDWoody]

Well, how do you explain this:..pissing all over all my friends...

Been a long time since I've been to that kind of party, but the troll stench is just too strong to ignore here.

You can move along now and wear your badge proudly.

 

[blanc]

To conclude your threads: DACs shall be neutral and transparent. What about filters implemented in DACs? Filters bring distortion, right?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

To conclude your threads: DACs shall be neutral and transparent. What about filters implemented in DACs? Filters bring distortion, right?

… and are these audible?

Amir measures usually with all / most available filter setting and it is then clear if audible or not.

 

[G-Can]

no need to continue off topic.
Ill just say that who ever had experience with higher end gear and heard a lot of setups, and made changes to amplification/cables, etc, did comparisons on well known songs, will be able to notice differences between different amps.
Not necessarily better or worse, but there are audible differences to music playback.

Dont get me wrong, I dont care about high end gear and audiophile BS that a lot of them are, but I have lots of experience due to friends and interests in this field when I was younger, and there are absolutely audible changes to sound depending on gear with same speakers in same room.

Why, I have no idea, but there is.

 

[Blumlein 88]

no need to continue off topic.
Ill just say that who ever had experience with higher end gear and heard a lot of setups, and made changes to amplification/cables, etc, did comparisons on well known songs, will be able to notice differences between different amps.
Not necessarily better or worse, but there are audible differences to music playback.

Dont get me wrong, I dont care about high end gear and audiophile BS that a lot of them are, but I have lots of experience due to friends and interests in this field when I was younger, and there are absolutely audible changes to sound depending on gear with same speakers in same room.

Why, I have no idea, but there is.

The most common reason is frequency response variations.

 

[Purité Audio]

Amplifiers can sound different, as can dacs but there will clearly evident reasons within their measurements why .
Keith

 

[Ricardus]

By now I can pretty much identify a Troll already with their first post some 80 to 90% of the time. After their 5th post I get usually 99% right. And I not mean the ones which I regard as such, but those who are banned from the forum within a week or two.

Totally. I can see them from miles.

The dead giveaway is that they pretend to be somewhat objectivist at first, but by the end of their post they're talking about objectivism being bad, but in friendly language. Their language changes in time.

 

[AdamG]

Merged more “what does a DAC sound like” posts here for your reading pleasure and entertainment. Enjoy

 

[fpitas]

Totally. I can see them from miles.

The dead giveaway is that they pretend to be somewhat objectivist at first, but by the end of their post they're talking about objectivism being bad, but in friendly language. Their language changes in time.

The most fun ones end up fighting mad lol

 

[G-Can]

Amplifiers can sound different, as can dacs but there will clearly evident reasons within their measurements why .
Keith

just recently, I bought SMSL A0300 dac+amp, which was measured was yet to be measured but A300 which ths is based of, was measured. It scored very mediocre and nothing to write home about.
Fosi V3 on the other hand, was measured and was praised as a great amp.

BUT

as someone who bought them both and tried both at same time, I can firmly say that A0300 plays WAAAY better then Fosiv3. Fosi V3 creates some lazy bass, no dynamics, no open stage, it just sounds dull in general
A0300 all the opposite. Mush more dynamic, faster, and punchier bass notes, and stage is like Im listening in some open space not on my table.

If I followed measurements, V3 should be much better. But its not.

 

[Purité Audio]

Amp/speaker matching is important, much easier to stick with active loudspeakers.
Keith

 

[G-Can]

Amp/speaker matching is important, much easier to stick with active loudspeakers.
Keith

wait, what? so you are saying there is difference between amps used on same speakers?

 

[fpitas]

wait, what? so you are saying there is difference between amps used on same speakers?

Only detectable by your wife listening from the kitchen

 

[DonR]

wait, what? so you are saying there is difference between amps used on same speakers?

Depends on the amp and depends on the speaker and in Naim's case also depends on the speaker cable.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

wait, what? so you are saying there is difference between amps used on same speakers?

I believe what Keith is saying is that a manufacturer of active speakers can insure that the amplifiers (or amplifier modules) that they use are sufficient to the task. OTOH, a consumer may be misled by an unscrupulous sales person, and end up with an amplifier that is not designed well and does not perform well.

Not every amp out there is designed for all real-world tasks. Some are deliberately designed to have a non-neutral sound, and others are made, unfortunately, to conform to a price point due to the highly competitive nature of the marketplace, and as such may be a less-than-perfect match for an unusually demanding speaker load.

As in all things, a well-educated consumer fares better than one who is not well-educated.

Jim

 

[Ricardus]

The most fun ones end up fighting mad lol

Yup.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Well, how do you explain this:
I bought a brand new audioquest nrg x2, same cable different plug (fig 8) cable, for my tv and hifi. The cable I was using was the stock Samsung cable, which I upgraded, by putting an MK copper tough plug, which I 'defused'. Then I 'defused' my new Audioquest cable, and then swapped cables. I thought, oh no, it sounds too lean and cold. So then I just used it with my tv, and not going through my hifi, until at least 200 hours had elapsed. So when I was satisfied that there could be no 'needs burning in' issues, I put the tv on, going through my hifi, and as usual it sounded awesome, pissing all over all my friends av surround sound systems, which to me just blur and confuse the sound/music. So I had the Audioquest cable ready to plug in. I jumped up and as quickly as I could, unplugged the Samsung cable and plugged in the Audioquest cable, and jumped back onto my listening position, and I kid you not, there was a completely different presentation of the sound. I get goosebumps when something changes for the better. This cable, compared to my upgraded Samsung stock cable, was immediately satisfyingly and jaw droppingly better. Now you measured this cable, with a standard cable, and the results were very similar, I read the article. However, this was enough for you to completely reach the conclusion that you 'cannot recommend this cable'. Had you listened to it, after your results, I'm sure you would have realised that just because something looks very similar, when measured, doesn't always mean it will sound the same. Sure, as you know, audio cables are directional, and the decerning can tell the difference, but when it comes to powering a toaster, light bulb, etc etc, there's no notable difference, and I'm sure you'll agree on that, but when it comes to audio, the slightest thing can make a noticeable difference in the sound quality/presentation. I was disappointed that you didn't even 'listen' to the cable, after your measurements. So do you think that I have totally imagined the difference between the Audioquest cable and my upgraded Samsung cable? I suggest, in the nicest possible way, that you actually listen to both cables, when you are at your most relaxed state, and then you have done the most comprehensive test, possible. If you can't tell the difference, then I suggest that you could be in a situation that doesn't allow you to be fully discerning to judge this cable, or other cables properly, and indeed if you just measure things, with machinery and don't listen, to backup the test, then the question 'is it a complete and proper test' arises. Please listen to both cables.
Many thanks.
Russ.

What is more likely, that every measurement and blind test of these types of claims, and really our fundamental understanding of electromagnetism and physics, is wrong, or that you have been deceived by a well-understood psychological phenomenon?

I, and most other folks around here, am happy to "listen to both cables" so long as the test is blind. And you'll find that as soon as you properly control your test for those well-understood psychological phenomena, these obvious differences you're hearing disappear.

I encourage you to read the thread on these forums about psychoacoustiscs.

 

[Ricardus]

just recently, I bought SMSL A0300 dac+amp, which was measured was yet to be measured but A300 which ths is based of, was measured. It scored very mediocre and nothing to write home about.
Fosi V3 on the other hand, was measured and was praised as a great amp.

BUT

as someone who bought them both and tried both at same time, I can firmly say that A0300 plays WAAAY better then Fosiv3. Fosi V3 creates some lazy bass, no dynamics, no open stage, it just sounds dull in general
A0300 all the opposite. Mush more dynamic, faster, and punchier bass notes, and stage is like Im listening in some open space not on my table.

If I followed measurements, V3 should be much better. But its not.

Ah yes, the "it tested great but sounded like crap" unicorn post.

Was the test blind in any way? Anyway, I don't believe you.

 

[egellings]

I will do it! All amps sound the same! There if people can post crazy voodoo science power cord stuff which has been proven false, then to be fair I can spout my voodoo saying they all sound the same even if it is not true. One lie begets another. I also noticed in that long paragraph statement on power cords a few posts back, it was carefully worded to include most all of the "hot buttons" that would normally send ASR people into fits. Kind of like a troll from another site. I also notice the post count was 2. So, based upon my decades of experience, I say TROLL!!!

All amps will sound the same if they have low distortion, low output impedance, and high input impedance and adequately flat & extended frequency response, and they are auditioned at the same volume level. A little S.E. 300B amp is not going to sound the same as a Crown Macro Reference, with both of those amps playing at a volume level that the 300B amp can readily manage. The little 300B amp simply does not have a large enough measure of all of the aforementioned qualities, so it can't. Still, the little amp can still sound adorable, even if it occasionally piddles on the sonic carpet.

 

[MattHooper]

I believe what Keith is saying is that a manufacturer of active speakers can insure that the amplifiers (or amplifier modules) that they use are sufficient to the task. OTOH, a consumer may be misled by an unscrupulous sales person, and end up with an amplifier that is not designed well and does not perform well.

That brings up a question. Anyone paying attention to measurements, including stereo files measurements over the many years, has seen the manufacture specs are often fudged. That includes specs for speaker, sensitivity, and amplifier power specifications are often overstated. So you don’t really know what you’re getting until it’s measured.

Has this been found for any active speakers that were measured? Any specific deviation identified from the manufacture specs, for either amplification or speaker specs?