I do not exclude this at all. I'm not making it a philosophical question. However my position is the following: if a person has thousands of hours of listening and in different contexts, as an experience; if he has a good musical sensitivity - and it does not matter at all that he is an expert - he will be able to judge well enough, at least at a first level. Understanding better requires a second and third level of experience. And measurements never hurt (I'm not against measurements, quite the contrary).
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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?
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But it was not a different sample rate, was it? Noise floor difference between full scale and -60dB is more than 20 dB with the same sample rate.
You could have got away with too if it wasn’t for those pesky kids.
Keith
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It's funny... you'd think that. However, the actual scientific research shows differently. Experienced listeners were not reliable (link goes to a PDF of Sean Olive's Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study).
I have a lot of respect for those who have no experience, but "ear" let's put it that way. Often they feel immediately if something is wrong. They don't always find the words to say it. I could give many revealing examples by the way.
Even at the expense of hardened measurers and listeners like me who have a lot and in a certain sense too much experience (this hardens and leads to some errors, of course).
Dude, you really needs a better translation tool..
Robin L
Master Contributor
I like the "Medellín kids" version in "Scooby Goes Latin!" [1990].
They also typically can't provide actual evidence.
Any that involve the use of controls? It's that dead horse again... Match levels precisely, make sure you can't know what's playing, then see if that treble is still so shrill.
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I did not understand what any of that meant. I just assumed you didn't or couldn't read the research and so you responded with some sort of meaningless drivel. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just not sure why you hang out on an audio science forum if you aren't going to bother to read the science. Even if you have to translate it, it's incredibly good research.
Well, I’m not sure half of the time because things seem to contradict in certain ways that don’t make sense. For instance:
I have no idea what this question means..
You put it simple.
I could be even simpler, but here the eternal question would arise: is it better a class D amplifier or a nice receiver from the 60s, or even better a tube?
Sure it's a dead horse. Because no device can make music: it just plays it. Put billions of graphs on it, it always does.
No sorry! I misinterpreted what you were saying! As for the inexperienced listeners, I repeat: I have the utmost respect for them. Sometimes an inexperienced listener understands and immediately reveals the existence of a problem, a defect, or more.
Downloaded, I will further read that study, because I am really interested in this subject.
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Yeah, none of that really relates to the research I posted, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I have new and old gear, and I'd love a nice 60's or 70's receiver, and I'll likely buy a tube amp in the future because I have a strong masochistic streak (I also own 4 turntables), but I'm not going to do it expecting it to be 'better.'
The issue here is that the differences between these signals are so very small, that to claim to hear a difference is akin to claiming to see a 1mm difference in the height of two 1km tall towers. If someone claimed that, would you ask for evidence?
I am not sure I have fully understood. Do you mean: the differences between these signals coming from tube amp, receivers and modern gear? Or you are just referring to modern amplifiers?
The musical experience is a very complex business. Making music also depends a lot on the culture you belong to. The same goes for dance. Having listened to a lot of music in different contexts certainly brings advantages, when it comes to judging a performance, for example. But many times a listener who is inexperienced or not accustomed to the musical genre he listens to (or the device it plays) will immediately notice things that have become habitual for us.
He will notice very strong differences, which he may not like, or he will not be able to decide whether he likes them or not.
But I can assure you that many listeners without too much passion for audio are often able to react with a strong mood to something they hear (pleasant or not). Understanding and describing it is another matter. But in their own way they are not wrong: they hear clearly.
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I did mix a lot of that together...
Modern gear is what that is referring to...between two well measuring DACs for example.
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