Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Purité Audio]

So...everything you sell through your business "Purité Audio" is DBT-proven to sound superior to an excellent cheaper alternative, even the electronics?

And if it hasn't, then your intent has been fraudulent?

Do you really stand by your words above?

Firstly I don’t sell cables, I include fit for purpose cables with systems, I make it quite clear to potential customers that for an example an expensive dac will not sound any better than a cheaper ( equally fine measuring) alternative.
I always advise that if the customer would like a better sound than loudspeakers and their interaction with the room is where they should look.
Keith

 

[Galliardist]

There is only fraudulent intent.
Keith

If that was the case, I'd feel much happier about things, to be honest. It's much easier to call people fraudsters than to accept the weird world that the other proposition gives us.

However, I believe that the majority of what goes on is just bad science. Hence we have to come to ASR, rather than go to the local police station or whoever regulates advertising and publicity where you live - they are pretty much toothless tigers anyway.

 

[Galliardist]

So...everything you sell through your business "Purité Audio" is DBT-proven to sound superior to an excellent cheaper alternative, even the electronics?

And if it hasn't, then your intent has been fraudulent?

Do you really stand by your words above?

There are reasons other than sound quality for people to buy audio products. As long as the products sound excellent when used correctly, meet local safety regulations, and are of merchantable quality, that's all we can ask.

 

[Purité Audio]

There are reasons other than sound quality for people to buy audio products. As long as the products sound excellent when used correctly, meet local safety regulations, and are of merchantable quality, that's all we can ask.

One has to differentiate, there is outright fraud, there are products which perform adequately but the manufacturer promises/implies superior sound quality is that fraud or is it just incompetence?
I don’t take any issue with listeners preferring a smart ‘milled from solid’ case but what is vexing is the associated implication that there is also an associated improvement in sound quality and thus spending even more for the ‘upgraded’ version will add a further improvement ad nauseam.
Keith

 

[Newman]

One has to differentiate, there is outright fraud, there are products which perform adequately but the manufacturer promises/implies superior sound quality is that fraud or is it just incompetence?
I don’t take any issue with listeners preferring a smart ‘milled from solid’ case but what is vexing is the associated implication that there is also an associated improvement in sound quality and thus spending even more for the ‘upgraded’ version will add a further improvement ad nauseam.
Keith

Good replies. A pity the link on your website to Mola Mola takes us to their words, “The result is something never before heard of in high-end audio: amplifiers and converters whose output signal cannot be distinguished, by ear, from the input signal.”

“Never before heard of…”. Fraudulent intent?

 

[Purité Audio]

Sadly I have no control on manufacturers copy, I have received quite a number of complaints from manufacturers when a disappointed customer has contacted the manufacturer to ‘report’ me.
Keith

 

[JustJones]

The result is something never before heard of in high-end audio: amplifiers and converters whose output signal cannot be distinguished, by ear, from the input signal.”

Not sure what country you're in but in the US there is no way this would be considered fraud. It's advertising.
Better Ingredients, better Pizza.

 

[widemediaphotography]

When senses are involved only cold measurements count. Our senses are to unreliable.

I think it's pretty unlikely that when you go to pick a pair of $30k floorstanding speakers you'll trust the measurements rather than your senses... Do you agree?

 

[JustJones]

I think it's pretty unlikely that when you go to pick a pair of $30k floorstanding speakers you'll trust the measurements rather than your senses... Do you agree?

No

 

[Purité Audio]

I would use measurements to whittle down to a number of possibles.
Keith

 

[JustJones]

I would use measurements to whittle down to a number of possibles.
Keith

Absolutely.

 

[JaMaSt]

“Never before heard of…”. Fraudulent intent?

 

[widemediaphotography]

No

Mh... I have never known someone who has bought high-level speakers using measurements (but which ones) as a criterion of choice rather than a listening test, since each speaker has its own sound coloring and that holographic transparent speakers do not exist.

 

[Purité Audio]

Hmmm contemporary loudspeakers can be pretty transparent.
Keith

 

[Blumlein 88]

Mh... I have never known someone who has bought high-level speakers using measurements (but which ones) as a criterion of choice rather than a listening test, since each speaker has its own sound coloring and that holographic transparent speakers do not exist.

What is your minimum for high level? I've known a number who purchased 5 figure speakers on reputation from audio mags. Most would go listen, but not always. Seems more risky than choosing from a group with good measurements.

 

[Dialectic]

I have bought four-figure loudspeakers solely on the basis of measurements and five-figure on the basis of measurements plus a relatively short listening test.

 

[Dialectic]

Not sure what country you're in but in the US there is no way this would be considered fraud. It's advertising.
Better Ingredients, better Pizza.

I'm not sure about this. The high-end cable companies tend to tout major audible improvements, and I think those improvements could be demonstrated clearly to be nonexistent.

The problem is the lack of a plaintiff in these cases: the victims of these frauds are those most desperate to believe that expensive cables improve the sound.

 

[Billy Budapest]

When senses are involved only cold measurements count. Our senses are to unreliable.

That’s true, but everyone’s listening rooms are different except for those who own anechoic chambers! LOL.

My point is that perfectly-measuring speakers will not measure perfectly in one one person’s room.

This, too, does not take into account individual people’s tastes—some people like more bass, done more treble. Some people (most people?) like to hear deviations from neutral, especially with less-than-ideally recorded material.

So that’s where subjectivism comes into play. Yet all of these subjective preferences are measurable. My favorite quote about audio: Everything heard can be measured, but not everything measured can be heard.

 

[widemediaphotography]

Hmmm contemporary loudspeakers can be pretty transparent.
Keith

IMHO, If that were true we would end up with a bunch of perfectly equal sounding speakers which is completely false!

 

[widemediaphotography]

I have bought four-figure loudspeakers solely on the basis of measurements and five-figure on the basis of measurements plus a relatively short listening test.

What would be the parameters of the measurements of a loudspeaker, in real operating conditions, which receive the power of an amplifier X, in a room Y with acoustic treatment Y? What comparison, on the basis of the measurements, can you attribute to the own timbre of the loudspeakers?