Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[JamesRF]

I wasn’t saying tube or ss was better or worse, instead that the specs that were useful judging tube gear missed a lot when ss came out, and yes it is a business, so expect marketing may be unscrupulous, so yes, they will obscure things to make a profit

Also was not referring to early digital recordings, but to early CD players, and yes they sounded like shit but measured wonderfully on the measurements that were prevalent then, remember the Sony Phillips line perfect sound forever

anyway, differences in current electronics are mostly insignificant compared to what happens converting the electric signal to sound at the speakers and then how that is affected by the room, fortunately sota dsp can help a lot, don’t need ABX to hear this, it’s not subtle. I spent years and thousands trying to get my system right by changing the gear, speakers made some difference, electronics almost no difference, room treatments about as much as speakers, dsp made huge difference

I loved vinyl when that was all that was available (although turntables have always struck me as quite precarious bits of engineering). I thought CD players were an enormous improvement - right from the start. I believe digital recording has improved over time - including with the advent of higher resolutions. I've never understood the concern with digital players. As others have mentioned, choice of speaker has always been much more significant.

 

[PGAMiami]

I loved vinyl when that was all that was available (although turntables have always struck me as quite precarious bits of engineering). I thought CD players were an enormous improvement - right from the start. I believe digital recording has improved over time - including with the advent of higher resolutions. I've never understood the concern with digital players. As others have mentioned, choice of speaker has always been much more significant.

 

[Newman]

Actually all the opposite. Early reviews of CDP 101 were great. People were very impressed with low noise, deep bass, dynamic range. It took a while and then the shortcomings became more obvious. At the time a Linn with a cartridge and tone arm was about 1700. A spectral pre was 1000. But even a humble Rega or Thorens outperformed the CDP 101. It wasn’t until Meridian that CD players became listenable.

Dude, you have been drinking the Kool-Aid.

 

[PGAMiami]

Agree, keeping records and turntables working optimally for me was just took too much effort, and this weighed heavily in me switching to CD

 

[PGAMiami]

Dude, you have been drinking the Kool-Aid.

Funny, true audiophiles think I’m nuts because I use DSP and don’t spend 1000s on cables! Let’s just say I think the truth is in the middle.

 

[Doodski]

The first moderately-priced CD player I heard at any length was in 1985. It was a Technics portable unit, manufactured to compete with the new Sony Discman, I suppose. Believe me, it was very listenable.

One of these?

Portable CD Player SL-XP5 R-Player Technics brand, build 1985– |Radiomuseum.org

Portable CD Player SL-XP5 R-Player Technics brand, build 1985–1987, 4 pictures, Japan, schematics, tubes, semiconductors, Sound/Video Recorder and/or

www.radiomuseum.org

 

[PGAMiami]

The first moderately-priced CD player I heard at any length was in 1985. It was a Technics portable unit, manufactured to compete with the new Sony Discman, I suppose. Believe me, it was very listenable.

I think what‘s listenable very much depends on the speakers, some are much more forgiving than others. A good set of headphones for me is most revealing. My current TAD speakers are not forgiving at all, but on great recordings they are very enjoyable. Sometimes it can be very frustrating because not all great music was brilliantly recorded.

 

[Doodski]

Yes!

Dood, there's a special place in heaven for you! Jim

I was repairing that grade of portable CD player up till ~1992-93. They worked really well with new laser and disc motor with a lub and cal the servos. So about 7-8 years life from one in total for customers I am guessing.

 

[Doodski]

My current TAD speakers are not forgiving at all, but on great recordings they are very enjoyable.

That's a skunkworks for Pioneer?

 

[PGAMiami]

That's a skunkworks for Pioneer?

Yes, Pioneer owns TAD. Today, they are unaffordable. I got mine a while back when they were 1/3rd the price. It’s too bad for TAD that Andrew Jones moved on. He’s an unbelievably talented engineer. The active speakers he designed for Elac are great too. I bought my son a pair, he loves them. Unfortunately the consumer market for active speakers is very small.

 

[Waxx]

About the difference due to the digital filter.
As you know, if it is different, even a simple frequency response will not be a similar measurement.
There are no Meitner DAC measurements, but TOPPING D90SE, for example.
View attachment 212002

Have you seen the scale of that graph? 0.1dB or even 0.2dB (the biggest deviation from flat in this graph) is not hearable by humans. In fact 3dB variationsis what the audio instustry still call flat and unhearable differences for studio monitors. So this filters do not vary enough to matter.

 

[Mart68]

Actually all the opposite. Early reviews of CDP 101 were great. People were very impressed with low noise, deep bass, dynamic range. It took a while and then the shortcomings became more obvious. At the time a Linn with a cartridge and tone arm was about 1700. A spectral pre was 1000. But even a humble Rega or Thorens outperformed the CDP 101. It wasn’t until Meridian that CD players became listenable.

Totally wrong. I have a Marantz CD54 and it sounds fine. The problem back then was the systems some people were using, not the CD players.

Jitter was a solved problem before CD was even released.

I know this stuff is repeated in the magazines ad nauseam but it's simply wrong. The people saying it either don't have the first clue what they are talking about or are pushing the idea that everything improves with time in order to sell product.

Sadly they have said it so often it had become gospel for the uneducated. Please - go on eBay and buy yourself a CD player from the 1980s and find out for yourself.

I've also owned a transistor amp from the 1960s. Leak Stereo 30. Used within its power limits and with high impedance loudspeakers it sounds sweet.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

My Philips 104 sounded great. The Meridian 206 sounded great. The current Oppo on the rare occasions it is used, sounds great! Three true, and entirely subjective comments.

 

[PGAMiami]

Have you seen the scale of that graph? 0.1dB or even 0.2dB (the biggest deviation from flat in this graph) is not hearable by humans. In fact 3dB variationsis what the audio instustry still call flat and unhearable differences for studio monitors. So this filters do not vary enough to matter.

its not just about the db, it’s also about wide the bandwidth of the dip or peak is. 1 db or even less is audible if that is over a wide bandwidth. Big 5-10 dips and peaks are not easily heard if they are over a very narrow bandwidth,

 

[PGAMiami]

So if everything sounds the same, including early CD players with 10-12 db of linearity and poor performing filters, and transistor amps from the 70s that had gobs of negative feedback and tiny power supplies, then we don’t need this forum

 

[Mart68]

So if everything sounds the same, including early CD players with 10-12 db of linearity and poor performing filters, and transistor amps from the 70s that had gobs of negative feedback and tiny power supplies, then we don’t need this forum

speakers and rooms can sound radically different, they are what dominates the sound we hear, electronics make only a slight difference at best assuming they are correctly deployed. Like I said with that old Leak amp you had to pick the speakers carefully and modern high output devices would overload it. you so you had to be careful with the source too.

It's possible to make mistakes with matching source to amp, amp to speaker, speaker to room, screw up anywhere on the chain and you get poor sound. But it pays not to jump to conclusions about the problem i.e 'Early CD players sound bad.'

My experience with early CD players was not positive either, it was only many years later that I realised it had nothing to do with the players or the format. I bought the old Marantz CD54 to verify that.

 

[PGAMiami]

Agreed, it’s a system and the two heavyweights are the room and the speaker, probably in that order. It’s a shame what some high end stores do, trying to solve a room problem with a cable or even amplifier switch. Much of the switching I did over years was pointless. It wasn’t until with DSP I was able to ameliorate some of the room issues, that I was able to really benefit from switching some of the electronics. For me having a system that’s easy to use is also very important so my entire family can enjoy it, including my son with special needs. So I prefer less boxes and great integration with a universal remote. This weighed heavily in selecting the Meitner MA3. The Roon integration is flawless, including volume control and auto selection of Roon when you press play on your iPad. Remote has discrete input selection.

For TV, I route the Toslink in stereo to a dedicated PC that is running a low latency convolver for DSP, then this goes into the MA3 via USB. With the TADs the imaging is so tight, you would think I have a center channel. For music, I only use Roon with an Audiolense convolution running on it.

I do believe the MA3 sounds different than my prior DAC, which was a Berkeley Ref Ser 2. But maybe it doesn’t. I really don’t care because it sounds great now, and the ergonomics matter more to me. The sonic difference is very subtle, at best, and mostly heard on sibilance and cymbals. Same with the amplifiers, the AHB2 seems a touch smoother than the Constellation. But the ergonomics of the MA3 trump the Berkeley that has no Roon integration and no USB input. And the ABH2s are much more efficient than the Constellation, and don’t heat up my room in Miami. And they are much cheaper so I was able to get 4 so I could bi amp my TADs. Bi amping made a huge difference in the bass, but this is not so easy to execute without serious help from a real speaker designe.

 

[SuicideSquid]

I think what‘s listenable very much depends on the speakers, some are much more forgiving than others. A good set of headphones for me is most revealing. My current TAD speakers are not forgiving at all, but on great recordings they are very enjoyable. Sometimes it can be very frustrating because not all great music was brilliantly recorded.

Also depends on who was doing the mastering. There are a lot of bad masters from the early days of CDs, where engineers were simply taking their masters made for analog tapes and dumping them straight onto CD. Since they were mastered to address some of the shortcomings of cassette tape, those CDs often sounded very bright and I think contributed, as much as issues with jitter did, to some people claiming CDs in the 80s sounded "harsh" and "brittle".

By the late 80s engineers had figured out not to do that though.

 

[PGAMiami]

Also depends on who was doing the mastering. There are a lot of bad masters from the early days of CDs, where engineers were simply taking their masters made for analog tapes and dumping them straight onto CD. Since they were mastered to address some of the shortcomings of cassette tape, those CDs often sounded very bright and I think contributed, as much as issues with jitter did, to some people claiming CDs in the 80s sounded "harsh" and "brittle".

By the late 80s engineers had figured out not to do that though.

Mastering had a lot to do with it, and while it is much better, some stuff still sounds awful, and this is particularly painful when the music is great

 

[PGAMiami]

Now with Tidal and Qobuz, it’s easy to hear the various vintages of digital transfers. The differences sometimes are huge and yet with no reference it’s not easy to determine which one is best. MQA to me just sounds louder and I prefer the PCM on Qobuz. If you doubt this, spring the bucks to listen for a month, then let us know, but please don’t ask me to offer proof!