Marantz Cinema 50 vs Denon X3800H - is there a difference in audio?

[viper900]

Need a receiver to drive my 5.1.2 setup including the KEF R5 and R2c.

What would be the better choice between the two?

 

[EWL5]

In terms of specs, they're basically the same AVR! I haven't heard the Cinema 50 but you probably get the "warm Marantz sound" vs the ruler flat response of the 3800. Really depends on what you're looking for in movie/music playback. Have you heard both?

I personally wouldn't pay $1k more unless I was really in love w/the exterior (and portholes)!

 

[DVDdoug]

I don't know anything about those products but electronics I generally don't worry about "sound quality".

Decide what features you want and make sure you have enough inputs (of the right types) and of course you can consider price and appearance, and anything else you want.

Quickly checking, they both support DIRAC (maybe optionally).

I haven't heard the Cinema 50 but you probably get the "warm Marantz sound"

It's hard to believe that they don't both have flat frequency response (before EQ or DIRAC). Flat frequency response (in electronics) hasn't been rocket science since the tube days.

 

[viper900]

In terms of specs, they're basically the same AVR! I haven't heard the Cinema 50 but you probably get the "warm Marantz sound" vs the ruler flat response of the 3800. Really depends on what you're looking for in movie/music playback. Have you heard both?

I personally wouldn't pay $1k more unless I was really in love w/the exterior (and portholes)!

I would prefer a warmer sound to pair with my KEF speakers.
Do we have any objective evidence to support this?

 

[VMAT4]

I would prefer a warmer sound to pair with my KEF speakers.
Do we have any objective evidence to support this?

Why not EQ for warmth?

 

[EWL5]

I would prefer a warmer sound to pair with my KEF speakers.
Do we have any objective evidence to support this?

Nothing beats an in-person audition! I'm surprised Cinema 50 owners haven't chimed in or perhaps Marantz already got rid of their "signature" sound?
Go check it out for yourself before committing!

 

[peng]

I would prefer a warmer sound to pair with my KEF speakers.
Do we have any objective evidence to support this?

There are frequency response measurements. FR is generally a good indicator for the warm and cool sound signature thing. The C50's dac filter is a slow one that would result in a slight drop at f>around 10 kHz, and would be down by about 2 dB at 20 kHz. Whether that would mean a warmer sound to you would depend on your hearing of HF >10,000 Hz. That's for the predecessor of the C40 of the C50, that is, the SR6015 and 7015. For the Cinema series, Marantz offers the options of filter 1 and filter 2 for the C30 and AV10. For the C50 and C40, they seem to have stopped using that slow filter, as evidence in Amir's measurements.

Amir stated:

Frequency response is flat which we didn't have in previous generations:

Marantz Cinema 40 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz Cinema 40 9.4 channel AV Receiver (AVR). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,500. As is typical in this class, you get a very large box. At least the look is unique and to my liking. The port hole display while limiting...

www.audiosciencereview.com

If you read that review, you won't find any evidence that the C40 (most likely same for C50) would offer the much talked about warmer sound unique to them.

A few other things to consider:

1) If you use Audyssey or Dirac Live, the target curves would have a roll off from below 10 kHz anyway.
2) Even if the C40/50 continues to use the slow filter used in the previous generation, the resulting HF roll off from around 10 kHz due to the use of the slow filter C30, 40, 50 uses are really not audible if you listen to contents with sampling rate above 48 kHz and have no effects at all if you use analog inputs.

For reference, below is the HF rolled off offered by the previous generations, example used was from the SR6014:

Amir's comments:

An ideal filter would sharply go down where the vertical red line is. The filter used in this AVR basically ignores the sampling theorem and has the slowest filter you can imagine. Now, the problems it creates are in ultrasonic range so maybe we can ignore that. What we can't ignore is that it is not flat in the audible band either:

Again, that's for contents with sampling rate 44.1 kHz only. At higher sampling rate the roll off would be much less, to none at above 48 kHz or analog inputs.

 

[Chrispy]

I'd buy the one that has the features I want at the best price. This site has a good tool to compare feature sets zkelectronics.com .

 

[EWL5]

So no warm sound means even less reason to pay more! You can always bring it back via Audyssey or Dirac room correction!

 

[JeffS7444]

Looks like a great time to be buying refurbished units, as they are heavily discounted right now. Marantz costs hundreds of $$ more, But FWIW, you get a 5-year warranty with Marantz vs 1-year for Denon. Otherwise, they seem pretty similar to me, so buy the one that looks nicer to you?

 

[viper900]

So no warm sound means even less reason to pay more! You can always bring it back via Audyssey or Dirac room correction!

There are frequency response measurements. FR is generally a good indicator for the warm and cool sound signature thing. The C50's dac filter is a slow one that would result in a slight drop at f>around 10 kHz, and would be down by about 2 dB at 20 kHz. Whether that would mean a warmer sound to you would depend on your hearing of HF >10,000 Hz. That's for the predecessor of the C40 of the C50, that is, the SR6015 and 7015. For the Cinema series, Marantz offers the options of filter 1 and filter 2 for the C30 and AV10. For the C50 and C40, they seem to have stopped using that slow filter, as evidence in Amir's measurements.

Amir stated:

Frequency response is flat which we didn't have in previous generations:

Marantz Cinema 40 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz Cinema 40 9.4 channel AV Receiver (AVR). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,500. As is typical in this class, you get a very large box. At least the look is unique and to my liking. The port hole display while limiting...

www.audiosciencereview.com

If you read that review, you won't find any evidence that the C40 (most likely same for C50) would offer the much talked about warmer sound unique to them.

A few other things to consider:

1) If you use Audyssey or Dirac Live, the target curves would have a roll off from below 10 kHz anyway.
2) Even if the C40/50 continues to use the slow filter used in the previous generation, the resulting HF roll off from around 10 kHz due to the use of the slow filter C30, 40, 50 uses are really not audible if you listen to contents with sampling rate above 48 kHz and have no effects at all if you use analog inputs.

For reference, below is the HF rolled off offered by the previous generations, example used was from the SR6014:

Amir's comments:

An ideal filter would sharply go down where the vertical red line is. The filter used in this AVR basically ignores the sampling theorem and has the slowest filter you can imagine. Now, the problems it creates are in ultrasonic range so maybe we can ignore that. What we can't ignore is that it is not flat in the audible band either:

Again, that's for contents with sampling rate 44.1 kHz only. At higher sampling rate the roll off would be much less, to none at above 48 kHz or analog inputs.

I did manage to get a discount on the X3800H from the retailer but they were not budging with the Marantz Cinema 50.

If no clear difference in audio then that's good to see - saved me £400 ($500)

 

[peng]

I did manage to get a discount on the X3800H from the retailer but they were not budging with the Marantz Cinema 50.

If no clear difference in audio then that's good to see - saved me £400 ($500)

I would like to put it this way, if people look through the thousands of various speaker's in-room frequency response curves, you have to wonder how the heck could people tell one avr sounds warmer than another, on all else being equal basis, obviously.

For example, here's what my Umik-1 mic heard, do you think you can tell which one was from the Denon AVR, Parasound Halo A21 amp with the Cambridge Audio preamp?
People can say all they want on forums about how separates sound night and day better, different in their systems, but they never seem to bother taking any measurements to try and find out if they might have been measurable differences that could explain what they heard (or thought they heard).

Of course the graphs just show the differences in frequency response from 20-20,000 Hz specifically in my room, mmp was about 12 ft from the speakers.

The tiny X3400H had no trouble driving the tiny KEF speakers to the spl I listen to:

By the way, many would say the A21 sounds warm because it would run in class AB at low level.

I think you will be very happy with the X3800H especially if you got it at discounted price, hopefully save enough to purchase the DL licenses. Keep in mind too, DL has been offering 30% discount a couple times in the last 12-18 months so you can always use Audyssey while waiting for DL to go on sale again.

 

[EWL5]

I did manage to get a discount on the X3800H from the retailer but they were not budging with the Marantz Cinema 50.

If no clear difference in audio then that's good to see - saved me £400 ($500)

Is that a street price difference or retail price difference? Here in the States, there's a $800 difference in retail price!

 

[peng]

Is that a street price difference or retail price difference? Here in the States, there's a $800 difference in retail price!

We do know that in the Far East and Europe the difference had been between $0 to $300, at one point, the Denon was $0.01 (iirc) more expensive than the Cinema 50 but that obviously was an outlier. People in the US and Canada has to be crazy about the aesthetic aspect and/or believe in the magical warm sound bs to pay such as huge premium hahaha.. $800 would have been enough for the DLBC license at full list price!!! Congrats to Viper900 who have done his homework before making his decision!

 

[viper900]

I would like to put it this way, if people look through the thousands of various speaker's in-room frequency response curves, you have to wonder how the heck could people tell one avr sounds warmer than another, on all else being equal basis, obviously.

For example, here's what my Umik-1 mic heard, do you think you can tell which one was from the Denon AVR, Parasound Halo A21 amp with the Cambridge Audio preamp?
People can say all they want on forums about how separates sound night and day better, different in their systems, but they never seem to bother taking any measurements to try and find out if they might have been measurable differences that could explain what they heard (or thought they heard).

Of course the graphs just show the differences in frequency response from 20-20,000 Hz specifically in my room, mmp was about 12 ft from the speakers.

The tiny X3400H had no trouble driving the tiny KEF speakers to the spl I listen to:

By the way, many would say the A21 sounds warm because it would run in class AB at low level.

I think you will be very happy with the X3800H especially if you got it at discounted price, hopefully save enough to purchase the DL licenses. Keep in mind too, DL has been offering 30% discount a couple times in the last 12-18 months so you can always use Audyssey while waiting for DL to go on sale again.

View attachment 375918

I find it extremely bizzare as a Denon customer services agent parotted the 'Marantz is warmer, Denon is punchier' line to me when I asked them the differences between the X3800H and Marantz Cinema 50 despite having near identical internals.

 

[viper900]

Is that a street price difference or retail price difference? Here in the States, there's a $800 difference in retail price!

Current exchange rate would put an $500 USD difference between the two receivers (Denon X3800H = £1000, Marantz Cinema 50 = £1399). This is quite a significant amount. Enough for a DIRAC license I think.

I'm probably the minority here - I prefer the looks of the Denon X3800H. I prefer the sharper edges; and the circular dial on the Marantz looks hideous.

 

[peng]

I find it extremely bizzare as a Denon customer services agent parotted the 'Marantz is warmer, Denon is punchier' line to me when I asked them the differences between the X3800H and Marantz Cinema 50 despite having near identical internals.

Good thing that's just their marketing talking points. If it was real, I would take the D for sure because warm, cool, medium warm/cool can be achieved to various degree with EQ, but if "punchy, typically mean more dynamic, impactful, transparent, then it would be more difficult to achieve via EQ.

 

[EWL5]

Good thing that's just their marketing talking points. If it was real, I would take the D for sure because warm, cool, medium warm/cool can be achieved to various degree with EQ, but if "punchy, typically mean more dynamic, impactful, transparent, then it would be more difficult to achieve via EQ.

Good point! You can't change from "warm" to "ruler flat" like on the AV10!

 

[viper900]

Good thing that's just their marketing talking points. If it was real, I would take the D for sure because warm, cool, medium warm/cool can be achieved to various degree with EQ, but if "punchy, typically mean more dynamic, impactful, transparent, then it would be more difficult to achieve via EQ.

One thing I am confused by is that the X3800H was reviewed poorly on ASR, but the Marantz 50 measurements were praised by everyone.

Do people generally like the X3800H sound?

 

[peng]

One thing I am confused by is that the X3800H was reviewed poorly on ASR, but the Marantz 50 measurements were praised by everyone.

Do people generally like the X3800H sound?

Amir did not review the C50, did he, may be I missed..?