Lossless radio?

[ebslo]

Old guy/Luddite that I am... I, mostly, listen to radio stations using... umm... a radio.

You're missing a bunch of stations though. Most local radio stations (in US anyway) broadcast 2-3 digital channels in the same band, so without even a digital tuner you're missing 1/2 to 2/3 of the local broadcast material. With internet "radio", you get not only the local analog+digital broadcasts, but from the rest of the world too.

 

[Katji]

I'd rather listen to my favorite radio stations, whatever sound quality they broadcast, than choose a radio based on lossless considerations!

That is why I've never even seen Tidal, or Qobuz. Only Soundcloud [128 kbps] and I even download mixes like that when I want it and they didn't enable downloads. Because those others don't have the music I want.
And Spotify, the Facebook equivalent. *

NB: Mixes, AKA dj sets - like radio. Mostly dj's and record labels or curators that get dj/producers to do mixes for them. Radio, dj, get it? Same difference. You listen to the radio shows/dj's that you like. No more important way, generally, to find new music/artists.
Although much of what I listen to nowadays, much of it is on Apple Music too.

Some sound much better than others, even when the Soundcloud 128 kbps stream comes from the 320 kbps file they uploaded. (Probably more often than not. You find out when they enable downloads, because it provides download access to the file that they uploaded.)

 

[Cbdb2]

So, no matter how deficient Internet radio might be, from an overall quality and cost/performance ratio, it's miles ahead of broadcast--at least for most folks, and certainly from an historical standpoint.

"What bitrate is needed to sound like analog FM?
As it turns out, 300 kbp/s or greater. At least in critical listening environments according to the paper titled Perceived Audio Quality of Realistic FM and DAB+ Radio Broadcasting Systems (.pdf) published by the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society."

So not miles ahead of broadcast. The biggest problem is the processing done by the station. Some FM stations sound a lot better than others. The above paper explains this and uses different processing, one taken from a jazz station the other from a rock station for there blind testing.

 

[mSpot]

Old guy/Luddite that I am... I, mostly, listen to radio stations using... umm... a radio.

You still have local radio stations worth listening to? Over the years, ALL of my favorite local FM stations have disappeared, gobbled up by media conglomerates such as Clear Channel (now iHeartMedia) and replaced with generic programming.

 

[DimitryZ]

Analogue FM stereo is an excellent medium if the signal is strong and one has a good tuner.

I have multi-module Denon rig with 4 FM modules, one HD and one Sattelite Radio.

In the Boston area we have WCRB and WGBH - both with excellent analogue and HD quality.

 

[skunkybiker]

Real radio was never a hi-fi medium, in the same sense as competing sources were hi-fi--> i.e., records and open reel tape. Also, prior to the advent of digits, radio programs (unless they were 'live') were mostly sourced from records, or open reel tape dubs of records. Records likely played with a Stanton 500 series cartridge. Think about that.

Unless you lived relatively close to the tower, reception and its resultant sonic vagaries were always an issue. For best S/N, and definitely for stereo, you needed an outdoor antenna, preferably one with a motorized rotor (if you were lucky enough to have several stations worth listening to).

Selectivity, multipath, weather conditions, and so forth made consistent quality reception questionable. Early SOA domestic oriented tuners were through the roof expensive. The Marantz 10 was rumored to have bankrupted the company. A McIntosh MR-78 sold for well over ten thousand of today's inflato dollars.

So, no matter how deficient Internet radio might be, from an overall quality and cost/performance ratio, it's miles ahead of broadcast--at least for most folks, and certainly from an historical standpoint.

I installed a $30 outdoor antenna this year and split the signal between my office system (NAD 7000 receiver) and garage tuner (Luxman T-100) and it made a huge difference in sound quality. Now, I only listen to KMHD jazz and occasionally our classical station and not compressed commercial radio, but I wouldn't characterize it as 'miles' behind internet radio. The main deficiency I hear relative to high bit rate streams is channel separation and bass extension, which I can live with for the convenience of just 'turning it on'. Distortion and noise floor are negligible at normal listening volumes as far as I can tell by ear.

 

[DanielT]

Distortion and noise floor you say sunkybiker ..hm

Does anyone know how good, from a perspective sound quality FM radio can be? What is the dynamic range? Sure, it cuts at 15,000 Hz (is that so in all countries?) But what does it matter for those who are a little older who listen. They you still cant hear higher than 15,000 Hz.

I want to take the opportunity to recommend a good site that has a lot of information about Tuners:

Tuner Information Center - Vintage Stereo Tuners

Reviews and photos of vintage stereo tuners, including Kenwood, Sansui, Pioneer, McIntosh, Yamaha, Accuphase, Onkyo, Denon, Rotel, Technics, Tandberg, Magnum Dynalab. Ceramic filter modifications.

www.fmtunerinfo.com

 

[DimitryZ]

Distortion and noise floor you say sunkybiker ..hm

Does anyone know how good, from a perspective sound quality FM radio can be? What is the dynamic range? Sure, it cuts at 15,000 Hz (is that so in all countries?) But what does it matter for those who are a little older who listen. They you still cant hear higher than 15,000 Hz.

I want to take the opportunity to recommend a good site that has a lot of information about Tuners:

Tuner Information Center - Vintage Stereo Tuners

Reviews and photos of vintage stereo tuners, including Kenwood, Sansui, Pioneer, McIntosh, Yamaha, Accuphase, Onkyo, Denon, Rotel, Technics, Tandberg, Magnum Dynalab. Ceramic filter modifications.

www.fmtunerinfo.com

That's the best resource for analogue FM.

 

[DanielT]

That's the best resource for analogue FM.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread (I'll nag about it again). A new section on ASR: Vintage.

There are many who are learning about digital technology now, but how is it with knowledge about the analogue? ASR is still a technically driven forum so I take this. Do you remember this for example , what a Superheterodyne receiver is?

The question is not asked directly to you DimitryZ, but more generally to everyone.

 

[Berwhale]

Great thread! I'm having fun browsing https://www.hiresaudio.online/category/radio/ and adding stations to MusicBee this morning...

 

[antcollinet]

RadioParadise has flac streams-

https://radioparadise.com/player

So thanks for that link. Never heard RP before. Been playing it most days since I read this, and have already ordered two CD's as a result.

Seems to be a close match to my musical preferences. Finding loads of new (old) music.

 

[Bob-23]

Thanks a lot for your recommendation of 'SomehowJazz' - I've been listening to it for a few days, and it's the first Internetradio Station I like, music-selectionwise and sound-qualitywise! The latter might have to do with that they - preparing it for emission - apparently, treat every single title individually (what a labour!) ) instead of employing, automatically, one single scheme for each and every recording.

SomehowJazz is definitely an enrichment!

 

[Marcel]

So thanks for that link. Never heard RP before. Been playing it most days since I read this, and have already ordered two CD's as a result.

Seems to be a close match to my musical preferences. Finding loads of new (old) music.

Been listening to RP daily now for over a year. Be sure to donate once in a while to keep them going!