Looking for a DAC recommendation for my speaker/HP combo setup

[Divine_Madcat]

Hey guys!

It has taken a long time, but i have finally made strides into getting an audio system i am proud of, one that really (literally) sings. As it stands, I am using the following:
Source - PC and/or Acoustic Research M2 DAP
DAC- Creative E5
AMP - Emotive BAS-X A100
Speakers - Vienna Acoustics Bach (lucky thrift store find... )
Headphones - LCD-2f (2019), HD650

Now, it may be just in my head, but i feel like my aging E5 is holding me back in terms of quality ( i hear pops and strange behavior at times) and features (inputs, outputs, etc). What i am looking for, is a reasonable buy once, cry once DAC, that will last me for years.... but still no break my bank. Realistically, i don't care MUCH about the HP output/amp, since my A100 has that WAY more than covered; i am just looking at something to give it good, clean sound. So far, i have narrowed it down to a few options, but I just get overloaded trying to figure out what makes sense (heck, i cant even figure if a better DAC does or doesn't bring better sound quality....). What i was looking at:

• Topping D10 - No problem to afford, but seems like it is such a basic unit, and i question if it would have the best SQ.
• ifi Zen Dac - I was interested until I saw the review here, with the rather poor (at least to me) showing for SQ (SINAD especially); but it keeps getting strong recommendations
• Loxjie D20 - I love the price point for a 4497 powered unit, but like the ifi, the review here put me off of it as well. That said, i am open to it if it sounds better than the technical review leads me to believe.
• Topping D50s - Seems to be a well received unit, with good features and performance... only, i am tempted by higher end components (listed below)
• Sabaj D5 - This is really pushing my budget, but for a one and done, i could make it happen. I like the high end components/features, but then wonder if it would be a waste is i am never using its amp.
• Massdrop THX DAC/AMP - This one is out of budget, EXCEPT i can do the amazon 5 payments, which i CAN make happen. I like what i read about this, but some of the features seem to be a pain (having to use the menu to switch outputs). And again, not sure if it makes complete sense for it since i wont use its amp much.
• FIIO Q5s - This is an outlier, but since it could be used with mobile devices, it does have appeal. But not sure how much sense it makes to buy a portable unit with 90% of use docked to the PC.

Sorry for the big list, but i keep going back and forth... i really dont want to regret my purchase in the long run, and i really want to enjoy everything my system can offer. I am open to suggestions, but note - It really needs to be under $400, and very preferable to be on amazon (simply because of the customer service and return-ability if need be).

 

[NTomokawa]

Get the Topping D10. Simple and guess what - you won't hear a difference between it and higher-measuring devices.

If you're in Canada I'll mail you my decommissioned D10 for free.

 

[Cahudson42]

At least with your PC, you might determine if the 'pops and clicks' are CES related by - temporarily (maybe permanently) replacing it with a $8 Apple Dongle..

Apple USB-C to 3.5 mm Headphone Jack Adapter https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07K25P3N1/

You may need to add a usb-c/A adapter for the PC..

 

[Blur]

The Topping D50s is a special find for sure. It is compact, easy to setup and use, and I especially like the front LED display and power button. The measurements are going to be very difficult to beat for the price and it is currently on par with my Schiit Bifrost 4490 in terms of sound quality. In fact, I would call it an end game DAC. If it has the features you want don't hesitate to get one.

What inputs do you need on the DAC? Just USB / Optical? I use optical almost 100% of the time because it removes the possibility of EMI ( electrical noise ) getting onto the USB cable for example. It also removes any problems with USB drivers many of which I have had with Schiit's early USB implementations. I never did get my Bifrost to talk over USB to my Windows 10 machine.

Do you need balanced outputs? You don't really need to go balanced anything, but I'm asking just in case that is what you want. I run everything fully single-ended and love it. In fact, I've had more issues with balanced setups because there are more components to fail and wire correctly in balanced setups making the possibility of bad connections way more possible. Take the Schiit Ragnarok and the Violectic V280, both of which I've noticed severe distortion using the balanced headphone output. I'm talking clearly audible distortion at medium listening levels some of which are easily backed up by measurement as is the case with the Ragnarok.

Anyway, if you don't need balanced outputs from the DAC try the D50s. If you don't like it in a day or two perhaps return it. No harm done. I got mine from Amazon which is nice because of their return policy.

 

[Veri]

Get the Topping D10. Simple and guess what - you won't hear a difference between it and higher-measuring devices.
If you're in Canada I'll mail you my decommissioned D10 for free.

Good guy

 

[NTomokawa]

Good guy

Figured somebody could be enjoying this thing now that I'm no longer using it.

 

[Divine_Madcat]

Get the Topping D10. Simple and guess what - you won't hear a difference between it and higher-measuring devices.

If you're in Canada I'll mail you my decommissioned D10 for free.

Fair enough, while i love audio, its been a long while since i have purchased something like this; i still have it in my mind that the new flagship chips *should* sound better.. i guess you are just paying for features/connectivity.
And i REALLY appreciate the offer, but i dont think i can take you up on it (currently residing in sunny Florida). But such generosity is truly appreciated!

At least with your PC, you might determine if the 'pops and clicks' are CES related by - temporarily (maybe permanently) replacing it with a $8 Apple Dongle..

Apple USB-C to 3.5 mm Headphone Jack Adapter https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07K25P3N1/

You may need to add a usb-c/A adapter for the PC..

So, this is where i can't quite get my head around bigger != better. There is now way a cheap apple dongle (i know it has a dac chip, and very low power.. ahem "amp") could even come close to any desktop setup. The circuitry simply isn't there. I do have some other USB C audio dongles if i really need to test; but i know my e5 has had alot of issues anyway, so its getting replaced regardless.

The Topping D50s is a special find for sure. It is compact, easy to setup and use, and I especially like the front LED display and power button. The measurements are going to be very difficult to beat for the price and it is currently on par with my Schiit Bifrost 4490 in terms of sound quality. In fact, I would call it an end game DAC. If it has the features you want don't hesitate to get one.

What inputs do you need on the DAC? Just USB / Optical? I use optical almost 100% of the time because it removes the possibility of EMI ( electrical noise ) getting onto the USB cable for example. It also removes any problems with USB drivers many of which I have had with Schiit's early USB implementations. I never did get my Bifrost to talk over USB to my Windows 10 machine.

Do you need balanced outputs? You don't really need to go balanced anything, but I'm asking just in case that is what you want. I run everything fully single-ended and love it. In fact, I've had more issues with balanced setups because there are more components to fail and wire correctly in balanced setups making the possibility of bad connections way more possible. Take the Schiit Ragnarok and the Violectic V280, both of which I've noticed severe distortion using the balanced headphone output. I'm talking clearly audible distortion at medium listening levels some of which are easily backed up by measurement as is the case with the Ragnarok.

Anyway, if you don't need balanced outputs from the DAC try the D50s. If you don't like it in a day or two perhaps return it. No harm done. I got mine from Amazon which is nice because of their return policy.

Inputs - would be 90%+ USB (i hadn't thought of it, but i think my MOBO has optical, and i could run it through that), and the rest for whatever connection i would use with my current/future DAP (for when i want to plug it in for the speakers). I wouldn't *mind* balanced in the long run, but i dont have anything set up for it currently (no cables for either the LCD or HD650), and with my current amp, i doubt it is really needed (especially if i flip the jumper, and run the full current to the HP output... goodbye ears!). The BT 5.0 is also a nice thought to have, but wouldn't be a common use case (and would be paying $100 more over the D10 for it).

 

[KR8NUX]

Honestly save your money and get the D10/Apple Dongle. Unless you want balanced (doesn't improve anything except for some solutions having more power than SE) or fancy features like on device DSP, or support for higher bitrates.
The 'recommendations' are subjective. You can't objectively hear a difference between one transparent device and another.

 

[Divine_Madcat]

I realllllly don't get the dongle recommendations, but maybe i don't understand something. You simply can't put the electronics inside (filtering, etc) that could match a full breakout box.

I will also say, this PC is mixed music and gaming.. i don't need virtual surround, but would like something that will work well for both applications.

 

[Veri]

I realllllly don't get the dongle recommendations, but maybe i don't understand something. You simply can't put the electronics inside (filtering, etc) that could match a full breakout box.

The other side of the coin, is that you can't hear the difference between a desktop dac and a very good dongle like the meizu or apple ones paired with a good amp.
Of course there's features and aesthetic differences when going up the price brackets, no arguing there. But pure SQ I wouldn't worry about how physically small something would seem, technology has come a long way ..

 

[Divine_Madcat]

I hate to admit it, but i have a mental block accepting that a bigger DAC, featuring full caps and good sets of resistors (for filtering, etc) wouldn't sound better than a simple tiny dongle. Won't be the first time i am wrong, but my mind isn't there yet.

As it is, i want a full size DAC regardless (for the other features), so ill count out the dongles either way.

 

[Veri]

I hate to admit it, but i have a mental block accepting that a bigger DAC, featuring full caps and good sets of resistors (for filtering, etc) wouldn't sound better than a simple tiny dongle. Won't be the first time i am wrong, but my mind isn't there yet.

As it is, i want a full size DAC regardless (for the other features), so ill count out the dongles either way.

Well you can't fit a whole SONCOZ SGD1 or Matrix X-Sabre in a dongle, but it's pretty amazing one gets close the value for buck in a good dongle or thumb device as opposed to a $400/kilobuck machine is palpable

 

[Cahudson42]

hate to admit it, but i have a mental block accepting that a bigger DAC,

What's to lose? $8 bucks?

Spend the $8 bucks for the Apple dongle and try it on your PC (not Android where there are power issues..)..

Perhaps you will learn something..

 

[Divine_Madcat]

Look, I am sure it’s “good enough”, but I truly have no desire for the cheap dongle... I am after a good desktop solution, ideally with a variety of inputs, and as good of a chip as I can get.

From what has been said, I am torn between the D10 for cost, and the D50s for the features, and moderately better hardware. Just trying to feel If the extra $100 makes sense. Any other suggestions in this price range?

 

[KR8NUX]

There is no 'good enough'. The dongles are legitimately good, with just a lack of features like physical volume control, etc etc. In fact, many of those components add to the complexity and the problems (that's why many amps have channel imbalance due to a bad pot)

There was a time in computing we had the ENIAC. Normal Calculators nowadays (in fact for quite some time now) have vastly more power than that. This is the fundamental basis of technology and the foundation of the Moores law.

You ask for 'as good of a chip', well devices from 15$ dongles all the way up to 2000$ integrated streamer/receiver/DAC/Amp solutions use identical AKM or ESS DAC Chips. Those DAC Chips themselves are small enough to fit into these dongles.

 

[majingotan]

This is just me, but I don’t really pay that much attention to the DAC chip (except Realtek) they are able to play music beyond our hearing capability. I pay money for exotic DAC implementation rather than a typical Audio DAC chip (My DAC chip Analog Devices AD5781ARUZ is not an audio DAC chip) at a modest price range but that’s just me. As for sound, they sound just like a well engineered DAC from the likes of Topping DX7 Pro, Sabaj D5, etc.: zero sonic difference, but processing digital bits in an exotic way is more satisfying to my subjective preference.

 

[raistlin65]

D10 is on sale at drop.com for $65 https://drop.com/buy/topping-d10