Legal fund for Reviewers/Erin?

[Kervel]

Reinventing the term subjective does not work. Use the term correctly. Unless you can make something better I don't see why this commentary is occurring.

subjective​

(səbdʒektɪv )
ADJECTIVE
Something that is subjective is based on personal opinions and feelings rather than on facts.
We know that taste in art is a subjective matter.
The way they interpreted their past was highly subjective.
Synonyms: personal, emotional, prejudiced, biased More Synonyms of subjective
subjectively ADVERB
Our preliminary results suggest that people do subjectively find the speech clearer.
subjectivity (sʌbdʒektɪvɪti ) UNCOUNTABLE NOUN
They accused her of flippancy and subjectivity in her reporting of events in their country.

The subjectivity is just that there are multiple ways to show the raw data. Spinorama is one way (and certainly the best), but that does not mean there are no other ways.

 

[amirm]

First, note that there is potential liability for willfully or recklessly misrepresenting the characteristics of a product. For example, in First Act Inc. v. Brook Mays Music Co., 429 F. Supp. 2d 429, 436 (D. Mass. 2006), a music instrument manufacturer successfully sued a retailer for false advertising under the Lanham Act and commercial disparagement for issuing a false ISO alert. (See, https://casetext.com/case/first-act-inc-v-brook-mays-music-company) Of course, this matter is distinguishable because Erin simply offered an opinion based on what he viewed as objective measurements. (I have seen Erin's video.)

Indeed that is a major distinction in what I and Erin do vs the above situation. Here is that "ISO Alert" from that retailer about said instrument maker product:

"

Attention: Music Supervisors Band Directors Instrument Instructors

Please be ALERTED . . . there are a number of discount stores, Sam's, Wal-mart, Costco and Hastings, (to name a few) that are selling beginner "instruments," or " Instrument Shaped Objects" under the name brands of First Act Concert Series, SIMBA, Bluebird, Jean Baptiste and others.

After careful examination of these instruments, we have determined that they will not play for the long term (if even the short term)! The ISO's break and parts are NOT available. The unfortunate fact is that the students that will be playing these instruments will likely not survive the first few months of band because of the design and quality. We are all aware that the dropout rate for beginning students is too high. Why would we, in good conscience, allow a student to begin on an instrument that dooms them for failure?

Because of the design and quality, or lack thereof, we must respectfully decline to work on these or similar instruments. The liability is too great and we do not wish to be a part in the failure of a student in your schools [sic] instrumental music program.

We sincerely would like to suggest, that for the sake of the child's future in music, these instruments be returned to the big box retailer for a refund and another option sought.

Bill Everitt CEO Brook Mays Music Group"

Above is classic sales technique to get people to not buy cheaper products sold in mass market retailers. It is commercially motivated to sell the brands they sell and makes unsubstantiated claims regarding longevity of the instruments of that company. Nothing remotely is similar to our situation were we are using state of the art instrumentation to objectively analyze the Tekton speaker as a disinterested third-party evaluator. Neither one of us told people to not buy the product forcefully per above. Nor are we directly incentivized if people did.

In the above matter it is easy to to blame Brook Mays Music Group "as the bad guy" with motivation to do harm and lack of any backing of the claim. I can see how a Jury would go for this.

So I disagree that the summary that "willfully and recklessly" alone is at issue here. There is a lot more going on there than just that.

 

[pseudoid]

Zevon's "Lawyers, Guns and Money" kept coming to mind, in this mini-series.
I am glad that it did not come-down to lawyers, and guns... but it is going to cost money...

 

[Newman]

I would separate the raw measurements (a few GBs of data), from the way to present the data (spinorama). In this case, I would call the Spinorama a model in the sense that there are many other ways to present on- and off-axis information.

Toole is pretty clear that the spinorama is just the data set, as per Amir's reply to you.

Showing data in graphical form is not modelling. It is presenting/organising.

Olive's preference ratings are a model that draws on spinorama data.

cheers

 

[jsrtheta]

Agreed. But making that motion will cost money. And with proper defense now, it may not get to that.

There are numerous defenses that can likely kill any such case. Talk to an attorney and hand the case to him or her.

Civil procedure provides numerous challenges to civil suits. Defamation is mostly, I think, a state court issue, not federal, but there are ways for a case to go federal.

And that's why you want an experienced lawyer. He/she will call opposing counsel, and sometimes that's where it ends. Also, facts should be your friends. Great facts make great lawyers.

 

[amirm]

There are numerous defenses that can likely kill any such case. Talk to an attorney and hand the case to him or her.

As I have said a number of times, my attorney charges $500/hour. By the time I bring them up to speed, send them all the background and communication and they write a letter to respond, I am in for thousands of dollars. I happily pay that if I need them for something. But when someone is making frivolous claims, I am not going to jump and spend that kind of money. They need to properly state their case which did not happen here.

 

[jsrtheta]

I'm in for what I can when something is actually in place.
I do understand Erin's position and feelings, I went thru a bit of the same once.
Mikey Fremer posted to Computer Audiophile some years back, his and then parent corp of Stereophile's intent to
file suit against me for "besmirching his character".
A slightly scary situation since I'm a retired blue collar worker with no real money to hire a legal defense, etc.
The outcome there was that a bunch of the members jumped on him with posts along the line of "oooooh, big man, going to sue Sal" and more along those lines. In the end he/they backed down out of embarrassment and shortly after Chris, the site
owner, deleted all related posts.
I've got a feeling that the same can happen with Tekton-Erin.
Tekton doesn't want to come out of this with egg on there faces and with enough support from the audiophile community over free speech and the first amendment I think this could all quietly go away. We just need to decide on a place to make some noise?

Yeah, the problem is that it would be such an idiotic lawsuit.

And is it possible to "besmirch" Fremer's reputation? Impossibility is a defense, I believe.

 

[jsrtheta]

As I have said a number of times, my attorney charges $500/hour. By the time I bring them up to speed, send them all the background and communication and they write a letter to respond, I am in for thousands of dollars. I happily pay that if I need them for something. But when someone is making frivolous claims, I am not going to jump and spend that kind of money. They need to properly state their case which did not happen here.

Sure, but a decent lawyer can write a letter and likely end this. And tipping that you don't want to hire an attorney might only encourage the guy.

Truth is still a defense, too.

 

[jsrtheta]

So let me get this straight: the manufacturer spat his dummy because Erin reviewed his speakers with holes in them and didn't plug those holes with feet he didn't know about even after contacting the manufacturer for advice prior to testing them? LOL.

Seriously, what loudspeaker has holes in the base right through to the cavity? I've never, ever seen that. Plenty of captive nuts, mounting threads etc and NONE are drilled all the way through.

Last time this happened in a review was with March's Sointuva with holes right through in the banana jacks he didn't know about.

Is there more to it I missed?

Stop Making Sense.

 

[jsrtheta]

Not everyone has the time, money, and mental capacity to deal with such lawsuit which can be long, exhausting and expensive. I would not judge Erin if he folds.
With that said, class act by @amirm . i know you and Erin had some dispute in the past but stepping up to support and help is a truly honorable thing to do.

I don't think there will be a lawsuit.

 

[jsrtheta]

Sadly the legal system, in the US at least, allows the rich and the powerful to screw over you by lawsuits. Just like in poker. They hope you will fold before bringing it to court, because lawyers are extremely expensive and if you loose, you risk getting bankrupt, from legal fees alone. This is of course bullying and why Erin needs every help he can get to fight back.

Courts don't like frivolous lawsuits. At all.

 

[Katzz]

Eric is probably well aware that he can get sued for defamation by Amir, his attorney probably told him to erase those videos and to stop mentioning Amir or ASR in his videos or social media

 

[Bruce Morgen]

I don't think there will be a lawsuit.

I agree -- even the most arrogant of fools know better than to p|$$ into a gale force head wind.

 

[jsrtheta]

I agree -- even the most arrogant of fools know better than to p|$$ into a gale force head wind.

I suspect his attorney will tell him to shut up and cool it.

In U.S. there are a number of ways to have a suit dismissed by a court. "Failure to state a claim" is my personal fave.

And it is not unheard of for a judge to look at the plaintiff's attorney and say, "Are you kidding me?"

 

[Doodski]

So let me get this straight: the manufacturer spat his dummy because Erin reviewed his speakers with holes in them and didn't plug those holes with feet he didn't know about even after contacting the manufacturer for advice prior to testing them? LOL.

Seriously, what loudspeaker has holes in the base right through to the cavity? I've never, ever seen that. Plenty of captive nuts, mounting threads etc and NONE are drilled all the way through.

Last time this happened in a review was with March's Sointuva with holes right through in the banana jacks he didn't know about.

Is there more to it I missed?

You nail'd it @restorer-john LoL...

 

[amirm]

Eric is probably well aware that he can get sued for defamation by Amir, his attorney probably told him to erase those videos and to stop mentioning Amir or ASR in his videos or social media

In all of my communications with Eric, I never got a feeling he was telling his attorney all that was going on here. Otherwise, he would have backed off from my first reply to him.

I didn't even get a feeling he had retained a lawyer. But that he know some that could write a letter for him as a favor.

 

[delta76]

I don't think there will be a lawsuit.

Courts don't like frivolous lawsuits. At all.

I was talking generally, not necessarily this case. Even a threat like Eric's would prompt you to consult a lawyer. Last I checked a few years ago, a lawyer in US cost up north of $300/h and that can add up very fast. (just read Amir's comment that his costs $500/h).
The legal system is so complex with laws, interpretation of laws and precedents that except if you are a specialized lawyer in that area, you might still be exposed.
I am not saying this case has solid background. It does not and should not. Life would be much better if this email was not even written. but as they always say, prepare for the worst

Well, it seems he made an U turn?

he still mistyped "support". there were more people criticizing his post than people supporting it, but well.
I don't really understand his train of thought - and maybe it's better I don't.

 

[kschmit2]

I was talking generally, not necessarily this case. Even a threat like Eric's would prompt you to consult a lawyer. Last I checked a few years ago, a lawyer in US cost up north of $300/h and that can add up very fast. (just read Amir's comment that his costs $500/h).
The legal system is so complex with laws, interpretation of laws and precedents that except if you are a specialized lawyer in that area, you might still be exposed.
I am not saying this case has solid background. It does not and should not. Life would be much better if this email was not even written. but as they always say, prepare for the worst

Well, it seems he made an U turn?

View attachment 363882

he still mistyped "support". there were more people criticizing his post than people supporting it, but well.
I don't really understand his train of thought - and maybe it's better I don't.

he still misrepresents Amir's review on his product page as of now, so there is absolutely no pedalling back from him, just an attempt of insincere damage control at most:

Mini Lore pair

1 pr. of Mini Lore featured in Tibetan Turquoise – $750 delivered. Grilles can be added for an additional $50. Note: the Mini Lore was recently pulled from my lineup due to a slanderous and deeply…

web.archive.org

 

[ahofer]

Toole is pretty clear that the spinorama is just the data set, as per Amir's reply to you.

Showing data in graphical form is not modelling. It is presenting/organising.

Olive's preference ratings are a model that draws on spinorama data.

cheers

Every review here and at Erin’s shows separate distortion, and now compression, and step function. Why does the FR and directivity data in the spin have to somehow include that to not be “subjective”. Speakers can measure badly on any of these tests (regardless of how those measurements are *presented*). Not sure what point this fellow is pursuing.

 

[rdenney]

I have seen several magazine reviewers openly say that they won’t publish reviews of products they can’t recommend.

Whereas this would be a weakness in any outlet with journalistic pretensions, it's actually not a bad position for individuals who write casual reviews on the Internet. Back in the early days of online activity, I was deeply involved in triathlon groups and also in bicycle science groups, drawing on my own background as a trained bicycle mechanic and as an engineer. I was asked by several companies to review products, and many I rejected because I thought their products either weak or lacked efficacy.

But I was certainly not attempting to be a source of scientific reviews for products owned by individuals, and I already had a day job.

For the handful of bicycle science articles I wrote for Triathlete, I focused on science of decision points (light weight vs. aerodynamic efficiency, for example), not on products. I was absolutely not a reviewer. In one article I talked about how the design philosophy comes through in products, giving them personality and soul, but specific characteristics are simply a result of material and design choices. That gig came to an end because I wrote that aluminum bicycles were only stiff and jittery when they were designed to be stiff and jittery, while the editor owned a stiff and jittery aluminum bicycle and was too inexperienced to know how mushy aluminum bikes could be. He could not give up his (uneducated) preconceptions.

Wow that 4 weeks per design with no vacation ever . No prototypes there . Wait there are use the customers for testing and then you have to run a business and build these ....

Suppose some of these are iterations of older designs so it migth not be as bad as it looks . You undo some of the ills of the express development in mk2 ,3, 4 versions ?

KEF could serve as model here they are basically doing the same speakers series over again at some years interval.

Henry Kloss designed two speakers at Advent, and his partner a third. And they changed the world of high fidelity for at least a decade and a half for those not able to spend big bucks.

A couple of points, keeping in mind that the law may vary by jurisdiction.

First, note that there is potential liability for willfully or recklessly misrepresenting the characteristics of a product. For example, in First Act Inc. v. Brook Mays Music Co., 429 F. Supp. 2d 429, 436 (D. Mass. 2006), a music instrument manufacturer successfully sued a retailer for false advertising under the Lanham Act and commercial disparagement for issuing a false ISO alert. (See, https://casetext.com/case/first-act-inc-v-brook-mays-music-company) Of course, this matter is distinguishable because Erin simply offered an opinion based on what he viewed as objective measurements. (I have seen Erin's video.)

Which raises a second point -- products, like most things, are subject to fair comment and, in the absence of malice, there is a privilege against liability for publishing such comments. Container Mfg. Inc. v. CIBA-GEIGY Corp., 870 F. Supp. 1225, 1232-1233 (D.N.J. 1994) (See, https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/870/1225/1647951/) What this means is that even if the publication -- e.g., speaker measurements without spikes -- is incorrect, there is no liability without malice.

I'm somewhat familiar with the Brook Mays case--they made disparaging remarks about musical instruments made in China and sold for ridiculously low prices at places like Walmart. I've played several of those instruments. The opinion was consistent with my own, and a lot of impecunious beginners struggled unnecessarily and lost interest because they couldn't learn to play basically unplayable instruments. It was the hyperbolic presentation that got Brook Mays in trouble. This is not a general disparagement of Chinese instruments today, which in general have come a long way in the subsequent couple of decades including far enough for one to find its way into my bevy of tubas. None of the good examples can be bought for a hundred bucks at Walmart, however--that business model failed utterly because of the (earned) quality reputation.

Rick "catching up" Denney