Kii THREE versus KII THREE/BXT

[Soniclife]

Nope. 1 meter minumum is normal. Did you ever see anechoic measurements shorter than 1 meter

So they can just add 0.7 dB at the top end and they will measure flat.

Your real question is how can any speaker measure flat at a range of listing distances, and that will affect all speakers. My guess is the brain knows that this is how sound works and it sounds right like that.

 

[svart-hvitt]

So they can just add 0.7 dB at the top end and they will measure flat.

Your real question is how can any speaker measure flat at a range of listing distances, and that will affect all speakers. My guess is the brain knows that this is how sound works and it sounds right like that.

My point is that the specs look as if they are made up.

We laugh at what producers of super duper cryo cables state. Why shouldn’t we ridicule Kii when they make specifications that are too good to be true?

Remember, Kii previously stated a much higher bass capacity too (20 Hz was changed to 30 Hz). So there’s a pattern here in terms of fishy specifications, wouldn’t you agree?

Bruno Putzeys, the designer, comes from Grimm, the clock company, a technology that @amirm has looked at just recently.

 

[Soniclife]

My point is that the specs look as if they are made up.

If you look at the plots from people here like Ray who use DSP correction their frequency response is almost within those limits in a real room. In an anehonic chamber using DSP the results would be simple to achieve.

 

[mitchco]

Certainly not anechoic measurements, but here you can see the in-room high frequency response of the Kii THREE and D&D 8c:

Red is Kii THREE and Green is D&D 8c, both left channel/speaker and measured at the LP some 3 meters away. Both make it past 20 kHz, which is a feat in of itself. 1/48th oct smoothing.

The Blue curve is the D&D at 30cm distance... Unfortunately, I did not take a near field measurement of the Kii THREE. But if you look at the roll off differences, and if I measured the Kii THREE at 30cm, I suspect it would be flat close to 25 kHz. Note my measurement microphone and calibration file is only for up to 20 kHz and have not measured this particular mic preamp. I know my Lynx Hilo ADC at 48 kHz sample rate is flat to 24 kHz as I have measured it. But really, if I wanted to measure past 20 kHz, an Earthworks mic would be required and a higher sample rate would be used (88.2 or 96 kHz) .

But what would be the point? None of us can hear past 20 kHz anyway, right? ;-)

 

[svart-hvitt]

Certainly not anechoic measurements, but here you can see the in-room high frequency response of the Kii THREE and D&D 8c:

View attachment 23759

Red is Kii THREE and Green is D&D 8c, both left channel/speaker and measured at the LP some 3 meters away. Both make it past 20 kHz, which is a feat in of itself. 1/48th oct smoothing.

The Blue curve is the D&D at 30cm distance... Unfortunately, I did not take a near field measurement of the Kii THREE. But if you look at the roll off differences, and if I measured the Kii THREE at 30cm, I suspect it would be flat close to 25 kHz. Note my measurement microphone and calibration file is only for up to 20 kHz and have not measured this particular mic preamp. I know my Lynx Hilo ADC at 48 kHz sample rate is flat to 24 kHz as I have measured it. But really, if I wanted to measure past 20 kHz, an Earthworks mic would be required and a higher sample rate would be used (88.2 or 96 kHz) .

But what would be the point? None of us can hear past 20 kHz anyway, right? ;-)

@mitchco , your measurements are fine, but that’s beside the point.

The point is you cannot have less high frequency absorption from a speaker than what’s possible under normal atmospherical conditions.

My point is, Kii first needed to revise their bass capacity from 20 to 30 Hz. And these error measurements, stating an error of just +/- 0.5 dB were always conspicuous.

These two examples make you wonder about the integrity or honesty of the company. It isn’t trust building that Bruno Putzey’s Grimm make these statements about clocks either. Why criticise @Empirical Audio when Bruno is a much bigger fish? Do we discriminate?

It makes me wonder too, if Kii made the Three speaker entirely in a computer, without the costs and hazzle of real anechoic measurements. Toole has stated:

«If the goal is good sound it is hard to escape the notion that the starting point for a calibration scheme is free-field data on the loudspeakers».
Source: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17839

Lack of integrity/honesty and signs of cutting corners in the design process? It’s not the way to build a company, is it?

Kii could have just shown their own anechoic measurements from the R&D period. Where are they?

 

[mitchco]

@svart-hvitt no argument from me. I too wish that loudspeakers manufacturers would share their anechoic measurements, especially using the new standard: https://standards.cta.tech/kwspub/published_docs/ANSI-CTA-2034-A-Preview.pdf that leverages Toole's and others work.

There are some anechoic measurements of the Kii THREE here: https://www.audioxpress.com/files/attachment/2609 and seems to agree with what most people have measured, including another site here: https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/zespoly-glosnikowe/2860-kii-three

My point is that these speakers measure incredibly well, certainly near the top of the heap and confirmed by many. Yes, it would be great to see Kii's own measurements, but they are under no obligation to provide them. While you might have a nit pick or two, I really don't see how you arrive at an overall statement that the company lacks integrity and is dishonest.

 

[svart-hvitt]

@svart-hvitt no argument from me. I too wish that loudspeakers manufacturers would share their anechoic measurements, especially using the new standard: https://standards.cta.tech/kwspub/published_docs/ANSI-CTA-2034-A-Preview.pdf that leverages Toole's and others work.

There are some anechoic measurements of the Kii THREE here: https://www.audioxpress.com/files/attachment/2609 and seems to agree with what most people have measured, including another site here: https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/zespoly-glosnikowe/2860-kii-three

My point is that these speakers measure incredibly well, certainly near the top of the heap and confirmed by many. Yes, it would be great to see Kii's own measurements, but they are under no obligation to provide them. While you might have a nit pick or two, I really don't see how you arrive at an overall statement that the company lacks integrity and is dishonest.

The Kii team obviously didn't manage to get their specifications correct, cfr. initial bass capacity (20 Hz) statements and the frequency response error which is ridiculously low in a non-Martian world.

Add to this Kii's statements that the Kii Three is a small big speaker, and everything you'd ever need. After a couple of years they introduced the BXT module; so the Kii Three wasn't big enough after all.

Bruno Putzey's Grimm Audio still push statements on the benefits of super clocks, both in a standalone clock and in a digital streamer which is priced at €10k. In another thread, people have ridiculed the producer of a digital clock. So I can't understand the special treatment of Kii and Bruno Putzeys.

The Kii and Putzeys marketing is of the more clever kind than what you see among peddlers of cables and magic boxes. Still, it's basically the same: Twisting the truth in a way to sell their expensive gear.

 

[Purité Audio]

Absolutely shocking, a senior Genelec engineer told me that Genelec made all their own drivers , a blatant lie that was confirmed on Genelecs own forum!
Keith

 

[svart-hvitt]

Absolutely shocking, a senior Genelec engineer told me that Genelec made all their own drivers , a blatant lie that was confirmed on Genelecs own forum!
Keith

Keith,

you're just making things up as you go. Not long ago the Kii Three was the best speaker ever, according to you. No need for extra low-end support, you said. Then comes the BXT which more than doubles the price and triples the footprint of the Kii package. And guess what: Now you think the Kii Three with BXT is even better than what you previously said is the world's best speaker...

Why can't you contact Grimm - one of your closest suppliers - and tell them to arrest @amirm because of his revealing test of super clocks? Why should one take anyone seriously who sells uber expensive clocks in 2019, while claiming these clocks will improve sound?

On ASR we talk facts. And I found it amusing that Kii claims to have less frequency response error than what's possible in normal atmospheric conditions on earth. That's the sort of statements you expect from cable peddlers when they claim to break the laws of physics.

 

[Purité Audio]

Even worse than lying to me, Genelecs drivers are actually made in China!
Shipped halfway around the world which rather blows their ‘green’ credentials, why would a company blatantly lie like that?
Disgraceful.
Keith

 

[JohnPM]

On ASR we talk facts. And I found it amusing that Kii claims to have less frequency response error than what's possible in normal atmospheric conditions on earth.

The attenuation characteristics of air do not place any limit on the flatness of a frequency response, it is simply another factor to take into account in the design to achieve the desired measured outcome at the measurement distance and under the defined measurement conditions, which should include temperature, humidity and atmospheric pressure. All measurements are subject to conditions under which they were made.

 

[svart-hvitt]

The attenuation characteristics of air do not place any limit on the flatness of a frequency response, it is simply another factor to take into account in the design to achieve the desired measured outcome at the measurement distance and under the defined measurement conditions, which should include temperature, humidity and atmospheric pressure. All measurements are subject to conditions under which they were made.

Somewhat related, i.e. how to take into account absorption of frequencies in air over longer distances in a controlled room, say a cinema, here’s Toole’s remarks:

«Fig. 5(b) shows a simplification of the two-woofer data in Fig. 5(a) with 10 m of high-frequency air attenuation slightly rolling off the flat direct sound for realism. Perceptually, humans may or may not instinctively understand that long distance propagation results in high-frequency loss. This is entirely possible for real sound sources, but is it true for movies where the anticipated distance is likely to be related to the image on the screen—that is, if we truly “suspend disbelief”? It is an interesting question».
Source: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17839

Given the fact that Kii never shared any data from anechoic measurements - just specs that were altered (bass, 20 Hz vs 30 Hz) - and a new world record in frequency response error (+/-0.5 dB is a new world record) without anechoic documentation - I have to wonder if so much thought went into the design process as to take account of absorption in air.

I have never heard about a manufacturer who took into account absorption in air for speakers meant for the near or even mid-field. Have you?

The detective has good reason to assume that the most obvious answer is usually right.

 

[March Audio]

Keith,

you're just making things up as you go. Not long ago the Kii Three was the best speaker ever, according to you. No need for extra low-end support, you said. Then comes the BXT which more than doubles the price and triples the footprint of the Kii package. And guess what: Now you think the Kii Three with BXT is even better than what you previously said is the world's best speaker...

Why can't you contact Grimm - one of your closest suppliers - and tell them to arrest @amirm because of his revealing test of super clocks? Why should one take anyone seriously who sells uber expensive clocks in 2019, while claiming these clocks will improve sound?

On ASR we talk facts. And I found it amusing that Kii claims to have less frequency response error than what's possible in normal atmospheric conditions on earth. That's the sort of statements you expect from cable peddlers when they claim to break the laws of physics.

I think you are stretching things a bit here. John Above points out one issue with you POV. The Grimm clocks are clearly designed/intended for studio distribution. Although that could include home use even if of dubious benefit.

To try and imply this is like peddling deceptive nonsense such as silver ethernet cables is a bit ludicrous IMO, especially when you dont know the conditions of measurement - yes those conditions should be stated.

from audio express

 

[svart-hvitt]

@March Audio , from Grimm’s web site, hifi section:

«Grimm Audio’s extensive research into the correlation between jitter and sound quality brought to light that emotional response to music is vastly more sensitive to jitter than previously realized. Attention turned from “making jitter low” to achieving the most stable clock possible. This research turned up a surprising array of previously underestimated performance factors like power supply noise, oscillator control circuit noise and low-level crosstalk. Owing to a radically redesigned discrete crystal oscillator, clock stability betters that of even the best test equipment available».

«Liu Zhigang wrote about the CC1: “It’s my luck, I’m reviewing the best digital clock in the world. The only important thing about a digital master clock is stability. The Grimm CC1 MKII has the world's most accurate master clock (…) with science fiction-like technical specification! (…)"
"Chen Weichang entered our large listening room, took his chair on the east side and started to play some of his favorite music. When he played the Vagabond track, he muttered to himself: "I never noticed this immersion in the low frequency." (…) He kept repeating "I never noticed" for almost every disc. We listened to the Pepe Romero and Maria Magdalena Flamenco album on Philips Classics. Pepe uses a pair of hands (and a guitar) and Maria uses a pair of feet (and a stage floor). Pepe plays hot and dexterous, and Maria’s power is expressed with her feet. In the original setup, when Maria hit the floor strongly the echoes of the near and far walls were sometimes faint. After adding the CC1 MKII, the realism of the church sound was beyond one’s grasp. A system with such good analytical power brings you very close to reality."
"For us audiophiles, the price of Grimm's CC1 MKII (developed for the professional audio market) can be regarded a bargain. There is a saying: after using the excellent Grimm Audio CC1 MKII master clock, there is no turning back”»

«It seems as if the musicians have more fun when playing music» (Quote by Grimm clock customer)

What are these quote documenting, but a company that uses the same language that you’d expect from a cable peddler.

You and others have criticized @Empirical Audio . Why do you think Grimm (and Keith) deserve special treatment?

 

[March Audio]

Did I not say above that in domestic use it is of dubious benefit?

Yes I did.

Even in the hifi section its still focusing on studio use

Grimm Audio’s CC1 brings the incredible clock stability of the AD1 to your current setup! The CC1 accepts Word Clock and distributes a super high quality Word Clock and AES/EBU sync to all equipment in your system. Now, any studio can benefit from some of the features of our AD1’s unique sound quality like ultimate musical timing and stability of tone.

As a master clock in a studio, yes you do want as high performance as possible.

 

[Soniclife]

when you dont know the conditions of measurement - yes those conditions should be stated.

I think they possibly are stated, from their website.

Frequency response: ± 0,5dB - 25 kHz, 20Hz -6dB (*)
(*) IEC60268-5 Paragraphe 20.6

I don't have access to that document to know.

 

[March Audio]

I havent really looked at this standard previously and without buying the full document I found this snippet. A fair amount of smoothing.

If I understand correctly sounds like CPB constant percentage bandwidth.

 

[Juhazi]

Even worse than lying to me, Genelecs drivers are actually made in China!
Shipped halfway around the world which rather blows their ‘green’ credentials, why would a company blatantly lie like that?
Disgraceful. Keith

That is not true at all. I have visited the factory and seen their shelves. Drivers are mostly European brands, custom OEM, but of course some models might have been assembled in China. Their CMD coaxial driver is home-made.

https://www.community.genelec.com/forum/-/message_boards/message/933654#_19_message_933683

About Kii's treble extension, svart-vitt you must understand also dispersion characteristics that affect nerfield vs. farfield treble response. Kii Three uses a custom SEAS DXT tweeter by the way, here is their generic model measured.

 

[svart-hvitt]

That is not true at all. I have visited the factory and seen their shelves. Drivers are mostly European brands, custom OEM, but of course some models might have been assembled in China. Their CMD coaxial driver is home-made.

https://www.community.genelec.com/forum/-/message_boards/message/933654#_19_message_933683

About Kii's treble extension, svart-vitt you must understand also dispersion characteristics that affect nerfield vs. farfield treble response. Kii Three uses a custom SEAS DXT tweeter by the way, here is their generic model measured.

@Juhazi , my take on the frequency response error of Kii Three is highly pedantic. No doubt about that. It was meant as a mix of humour, but also a critical remark too.

Sometimes, ASR members ridicule cable producers who claim faster signal speeds than the speed of light. Such claims are great humour, right? Kii and Grimm are highly regarded by many, so what are we to say when they make claims that cannot be supported by physics or audio science?

Kii claimed a world record when stating +/-0.5 dB in frequency response error. Given our insights into physics, we know that such a claim is practically nonsense. ASR is good at pointing out nonsensical claims in the audio world. So I thought this +/-0.5 claim was worthy of a humorous comment. Then Keith started his diversion tactics. @March Audio, whose UK distributor is Keith/Purite Audio, came to rescue Keith.

 

[Soniclife]

View attachment 23797

I havent really looked at this standard previously and without buying the full document I found this snippet. A fair amount of smoothing.

If I understand correctly sounds like CPB constant percentage bandwidth.

View attachment 23798

Thanks, I wasn't prepared to pay for it either. It sounds similar to what REW calls ERB Smoothing?