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Is this it? Is this going to be as good as audio hardware gets?

PingWine

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As a dude who follows the development of new technologies and innovations I can't help but feel like the audio department lags behind. As an example you could buy a TV now and it could be hugely outdated in five years. Or worse yet you could buy a smartphone which could be outdated and with dropped support as soon as in two or three years.

But then you look at audio market. Still one of the most used microphone, SM58, was first released in 1966. Or you could look at one of the most popular audiophile headphones, the Sennheiser HD 650, which was first released in 2003. Or the almost infamous (yet hugely popular) Beyerdynamic DT 990 which was first released in 1985. It seems everywhere you look in the audio deparment, the best selling thing in that category was first made at least decade or two ago. (with some exceptions like dacs and amps).

Sure there are the very expensive headphones like HD800S which are pretty recent but still. It's not like it's absolutely ground breaking difference when compared to something like HD650. Even more "recent" driver technologies like electrostatic or planar haven't completely changed the audio landscape.

Is it that audio doesn't get enough attention from the general public or why is it that it seems that audio hardware is so slow to improve? Have we already hit a technological wall where there isn't much room for improvement anymore? What do you guys think?

Hey at least in a way it's nice to know when buying expensive headphones or speakers that they are going to be relevant for years to come, but :(.
 

Doodski

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For much of audio gear the limits are determined by physics, manufacturing practices and materials and in cel tels it's software and processors. DACs have been a mostly solved issue for decades now and when shopping for one it's a numbers game looking for specs and features otherwise the better ones all sound pretty much the same unless one has a EQ built in. Amplifiers have improved over the years but still I have had good amps that are 40 years old and in a double blind test you would not know it comparing to a new good amp. As per speakers and headphones the technology for manufacturing and design has improved but there are still models that shine on even though they are dated like the DT990, HD650 and some speaker models too. Audio is improving due to manufacturing tooling improvements, engineering updates and better materials but for some of the stuff the physics just can't be beaten down and solved. Transducers are still the major issue for the industry and it doesn't look like that will be changing for some time to come.
 
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q3cpma

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What do you mean by outdated? Stuff like 8K is the equivalent of high res audio and OLED/µLED only looks incredible because LCD is shit compared to CRT and the SED/FED fiasco. I'm sure I'd be quite okay with a Panasonic ST60 or a good OLED even now (if I had a TV, of course).
Smartphone obsolescence is mostly artificial, driven by bloated software and newer codecs mandated by stupid pixel densities.

I don't see how we can get better than current designs like the Kii three + BXT or 8351B + W371A unless you manage to do the same while reducing price and/or space. The limit has been stereo (and even 5.1) for a long time, Ambisonics and other object based systems might be the solution, but too much good popular music will never be re-recorded to really benefit from it (unless upmixing technologies really becomes better and it's done ahead-of-time, possibly supervised by a sound engineer, as opposite to applied blindly to all music just-in-time).

But you're right about headphones, the technology is pathetically stationary (inb4 DSP) and flawed compared to speakers. Some ideas from someone who doesn't really know about headphones: coaxial drivers/multiple drivers, DSP done on the source instead of the headphone, maybe servo mechanism?
 
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PingWine

PingWine

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What do you mean by outdated? Stuff like 8K is the equivalent of high res audio and oled/microled only looks incredible because LCD is shit compared to CRT and the SED/FED fiasco. I'm sure I'd be quite okay with a Panasonic ST60 even now (if I had one, of course).
Okay maybe they aren't "outdated" per say, but you can't disagree that displays haven't been advancing at much higher pace than audio has. Sure the industry hasn't yet had time to adapt to new technologies like HDR or WCG but hey at least they have been invented. Now it's just a waiting game for enough people to have devices that support them to get better support.

And when it comes to LCD and CRT, LCD was supposed to be much bigger of a technological change than it was. What I mean by this that Rec.709 color space was invented in the time of CRT's when 100nits was all they could produce in dynamic range. If Rec.2020 were to be standardized earlier, the jump from CRT's to LCD would've been bigger and more noticeable.

But hey this is an audio forum so maybe I won't delve deeper with this subject. It wasn't supposed to be a audio hardware vs video hardware advancing debate by any means. It was just an example. Maybe more appropriate comparison would've been something like graphics cards because there you can't argue that 10 year old hardware would still shine like much of audio hardware does.
 

q3cpma

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The problem seem multiple fold to me:
* Sound quality has reached the ear's limit (again, if you only consider stereo) unlike screens for the eye's.
* Solutions to reach the next step would probably be too spatially invasive.
* High quality active solutions (not mono boomboxes) are still ignored by manufacturers who probably feel like the older "dying" (no pun) audiophile-that-can-see-cables-dancing + more moderate individuals (who still only use the gear cult rags as reference) customer base is still a better bet than one that may or may not exist and would have to be created from scratch using marketing.
* Real quality has a higher price than TVs (I think?).
* Music listening (and not just background/ambiance noise) is seriously unfashionable these days, unlike TV that benefits from a "healthy" addiction which makes such compromises less needed.
 
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Vini darko

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The only genuine advancements in the last 30 years imo are streaming and it's supporting software, power efficiency and miniaturization of electronics and mass access to room corection and peq software.
So mostly software and things getting smaller.
 

Geert

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As a dude who follows the development of new technologies and innovations I can't help but feel like the audio department lags behind.
Does it lag behind, or did it already reach perfection (except voor speakers)? For most people the biggest room for improvement is acoustics, while the most important limitations are the necessary space to setup an audio system in a decent way, the stereo concept itself and the loudness war. The audio components themselves are good enough I think. Except for speakers, these are still evolving.

A high end audio system in a nice room fine tuned with DSP can blow me away already, don't know what else to expect. The production quality of the recording is more detrimental.
 
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q3cpma

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The only genuine advancements in the last 30 years imo are streaming and it's supporting software, power efficiency and miniaturization of electronics and mass access to room corection and peq software.
So mostly software and things getting smaller.
I'd add widespread use of computer simulations for designing speakers, too.
 

Geert

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The only genuine advancements in the last 30 years imo are streaming and it's supporting software, power efficiency and miniaturization of electronics and mass access to room corection and peq software.
And the more controled power response and lower distortion of speakers.
 

Feelas

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As a dude who follows the development of new technologies and innovations I can't help but feel like the audio department lags behind. As an example you could buy a TV now and it could be hugely outdated in five years. Or worse yet you could buy a smartphone which could be outdated and with dropped support as soon as in two or three years.

But then you look at audio market. Still one of the most used microphone, SM58, was first released in 1966. Or you could look at one of the most popular audiophile headphones, the Sennheiser HD 650, which was first released in 2003. Or the almost infamous (yet hugely popular) Beyerdynamic DT 990 which was first released in 1985. It seems everywhere you look in the audio deparment, the best selling thing in that category was first made at least decade or two ago. (with some exceptions like dacs and amps).

Sure there are the very expensive headphones like HD800S which are pretty recent but still. It's not like it's absolutely ground breaking difference when compared to something like HD650. Even more "recent" driver technologies like electrostatic or planar haven't completely changed the audio landscape.

Is it that audio doesn't get enough attention from the general public or why is it that it seems that audio hardware is so slow to improve? Have we already hit a technological wall where there isn't much room for improvement anymore? What do you guys think?

Hey at least in a way it's nice to know when buying expensive headphones or speakers that they are going to be relevant for years to come, but :(.
I felt the same way before, and you know what? Audio became very egalitarian these days! IMO that mostly results from following only the advancement, not having the full view of what people use.

Look, even by getting a low-cost smartphone, you're getting a decent DAC+AMP performance for headphones on most IEMs. We have pocket SOCs which easily overshadow many vintage components, while taking tens of thousands times less power - I'd hardly call that non-impressive.
Real progress happens in the mobile market. These days DSPs are EVERYWHERE, even a simple smartphone has an EQ that works better than anything vintage did!

Even headphones drivers progress - for instance, look at K371s transducer. You're getting a 50mm dynamic driver in closed package, which has some refinements to be made (e.g. all these 4k+ resonances) with THD ~1% in 95dB SPL - this is A LOT better than HD650s ever could do. Sennheiser also released HD560s, which are, again, a further refinement of the extension. Hell, look how effective current planars are - Anandas are possible to drive from a smartphone, much like K371s and HD560s! Compare that to Sony's MDR-7506 THD. Again - if that's not progress, then what is?

You're grossly overestimating the video segment, to be honest. Anything Full HD is still very recent these days; lots of satellite-based TV providers don't offer much over 1080p still, today. Some people don't even go forwards from 720p, many smartphones still work on that resolution. HDR10 still isn't a widely known standard, much like UHD and even 1440p.

Did you actually read that HDR10 is not being done properly? Standard asks for 1000 nits and yet even that one is not achieved these days, even in SOTA. The promise is real, but only the promise. And even with 1080p, you'd probably not want to know how heavily compressed the FHD material is on the satellite just to make it fit w/ hundreds of different channels. Netflix also compresses the material heavily, but they're squeezing the last bit (pun intended) of perceptibly unnoticeable lossy video compression to be had. With audio, we've seemingly been past the transparent region at the end of 90's. If having ~10-15x transparent compression for audio (e.g. Opus) is not a measure of progress, then what else is? The fact is that video is still far from achieving transparent compression. Video progress is mostly a fiction for a typical consumer, unless one jumps from SD to FHD bandwagon all at once.

The matter of using vintage hardware is not entirely because "it's better" - you can easily buy flat-measuring microphones (hell, even with calibration in package) for a lot less than what the tailored frequency ones go for. Why would you do that from a studio viewpoint, since musicians are interested in specific sound, not targetting the "flattest & most accurate" target, but some specific aesthetic. All this hardware is merely a tool. See what the noise floor of modern digital consoles is! Lowering the digital noise floor allows to make recordings better and more accurate to the artists' intention, with more and more processing possible. E.g. Steve Albini commented back in the days, that he uses tape simply because it does all what he needs from the start; not having him think through how to emulate. Still, not everything can be done acoustically and in a puristic mindset of avoiding DSPs.

IMO looking at SOTA is not what really matters - and believe me, I think there's nothing to be said that SOTA 8K sells. It does sell the 4Ks from the same vendor, though, merely because of exposure effect. "SOTA" sells the low and mid price products! The audio SOTA might not be progressing in a steamroller fashion, but the median quality surely is.

And yet, the real future to be had is audio personalization, I guess that if we achieved that, we're done, FWIW.

* Solutions to reach the next step would probably be too spatially invasive.
That's probably hitting the nail straight on the head. Even 5.1 didn't catch, since it is too problematic to implement in spaces that didn't account for that.
 

q3cpma

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abdo123

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I think the only thing I'm surprised that is not fully developed at this stage is a full room correction suite/algorithms/program that corrects everything from A to Z (with little human input) even if your listening position is sitting on the speakers.

Like an algorithim that would ask you whether you like 'A' or 'B' more and figure out the perfect target response for you.
 

JSHamlet234

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In a world where nothing seems to last, and everything becomes obsolete, I find my audio hobby to be a welcome reprieve.
 

_thelaughingman

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* Music listening (and not just background/ambiance noise) is seriously unfashionable these days

Yea add in not getting "me" time or time to listen to your music in a distraction free environment, especially when you have kids and spouses involved. Throw out the passion for enjoying music the way it should be.
 

txbdan

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The next frontier is the listening space. People's room's are the biggest detriment to sound. Easy to use or automatic room correction/DSP magic has recently arrived and will greatly shape things going forward.
 

maverickronin

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* Real quality has a higher price than TVs (I think?).

This is really just an economy of scale thing.

Pairs of Genelec Ones, Kii 3's and D&D 8C's could probably be had for 1 or 2K if there was demand to crank them out in the volumes that TVs are produced in.
 
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