Is the best Bluetooth Transmitter as good as cables for Spotify?

[DanielT]

Bluetooth with LDAC transmitter, which I think is the best Bluetooth transmitter, right?

VS

Spotify played with cables (between computer-external DAC) and then the best possible SOTA DAC.

Do you think you can hear any difference in the sound then? Maybe someone tested and compared?

 

[Oso Polar]

LDAC is still a lossless codec, so objectively it will have lower quality compared to wired connection. I don't think I personally can hear any difference using high bitrate LDAC (909 kbps). doesn't mean someone else can't. Another issue with LDAC is that 909/990kbps mode works only under optimal conditions (and stability depends a lot on your transmitter, i.e. phone, and receiver - some combinations are MUCH better than others), if it switches to a lower bitrate the difference will become more noticeable.

 

[DanielT]

Aha, interesting. Thanks for the information.

Development will probably move forward so that it eliminates the need for cables, under all conditions. Seen from a HiFi perspective, that is. The transmitter, i.e. phone, and receiver will be better, more stable.
Plus better Bluetooth itself. If the Bluetooth program, the protocol, in itself is good enough as a platform to build on? Maybe it has reached its maximum capacity now? But on the other hand, in that case, other wireless solutions may emerge in the future.

 

[ZolaIII]

Why not just use good old WiFi streaming in a form of WiiM Mini Toslink out which is basically transparent? For not latency sensitive things like music at least. Spotify it self uses lossy (codec) transmission.
After a while I gave up from WiFi streaming even in local form. In my case for a benefit of equal loudness and high pass filter (all do former can be achieved for the first one I didn't find any solution). Now I use it for remote control (functions and local content) only. Rest including streaming content I use through intermediate driver (WDM Windows) from apps or browser. When I listen at home of course.

 

[DanielT]

Why not just use good old WiFi streaming in a form of WiiM Mini Toslink out which is basically transparent? For not latency sensitive things like music at least. Spotify it self uses lossy (codec) transmission.
After a while I gave up from WiFi streaming even in local form. In my case for a benefit of equal loudness and high pass filter (all do former can be achieved for the first one I didn't find any solution). Now I use it for remote control (functions and local content) only. Rest including streaming content I use through intermediate driver (WDM Windows) from apps or browser. When I listen at home of course.

It's mostly that I was curious. I use one device, a mobile, laptop or tablet as a streamer and with another device I change songs, discs on Spotify. The Spotify feature of being able to remotely control devices is probably the best feature of Spotify.
The volume changes via the DAC Topping E30's remote control.

 

[ZolaIII]

It's mostly that I was curious. I use one device, a mobile, laptop or tablet as a streamer and with another device I change songs, discs on Spotify. The Spotify feature of being able to remotely control devices is probably the best feature of Spotify.
The volume changes via the DAC Topping E30's remote control.

I use JRiver white JRemote2 and all do volume control on remote ain't great it works for me. Thing is most manufacturers are skipping part with implementing deacantent BT antennas in device's especially smartphones to keep up with 1 MB/s bandwidth requirements of higher quality low complexity codecs without cutting outs even on relatively short distances. Only Sony and LG did it good enough for let's say 1.5 m distance and LG is out of that business and Sony is very pricey. Anyway a WiiM Mini with a sub 100$ price and 5~15 m range on average rooter is a better solution.
Have a nice time.

 

[nagster]

Single tone and 32 tones were measured using WAV, AAC, Vorbis and LDAC.
Wavelab did not have CBR/320kbps in Vorbis encoding settings, so I set it to CBR/350kbps.

=Single tone=

 

[nagster]

=32 tones=

 

[amadeogt]

Archimago just published a great article comparing Bluetooth codecs:

Part I: Comparison of Bluetooth Fidelity - SBC, aptX, AAC, LDAC (Android 10 source)

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

The results show SINAD between 55 and 70 dB, depending on the codec and bitrate. Well worth a read.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Do you think you can hear any difference in the sound then?

I know I cannot hear any difference, either connected with headphone plug, wifi or blue tooth, no difference in tone nor image, same everything.
Moving my speakers one way or the other big difference, moving my listening chair, big difference, different mastering of the same song, big difference. All easy to hear.

 

[Oso Polar]

Thing is most manufacturers are skipping part with implementing deacantent BT antennas in device's especially smartphones to keep up with 1 MB/s bandwidth requirements of higher quality low complexity codecs without cutting outs even on relatively short distances.

Antennas may be a problem (I've no idea) but definitely not the only problem, software tuning makes a HUGE difference. For example, I had no issues at all with high bitrate LDAC playback with the old OnePlus 3T (2016) - sound drop outs were appearing only at long distances between the phone and receiver (Qudelix-5K). Now, much more powerful Samsung S22 Ultra can't play 909/990 kbps at all if the phone is in use, there are really huge sound dropouts, probably because the phone is tuned to give all resources to the foreground application. As soon as the phone is left alone, it plays the same bitrates perfectly.

 

[ZolaIII]

@Oso Polar well in Samsung case it might be broken deliberately to push their own sub pair codec or maybe not as there are so much broken things in their builds. Disappointing as it is even One+ ain't anymore what it whose regarding software.

 

[Oso Polar]

in Samsung case it might be broken deliberately to push their own sub pair codec or maybe not as there are so much broken things in their builds.

I don't think it has anything to do with the codec itself, it looks like a pure kernel scheduler tuning issue - foreground process receives all available resources to improve perceived UI smoothness, so background processes suffer. As soon as there is no activity in the foreground (you stop touching the phone or lock it), playback becomes good.

Spoiler

To be fare, apart from this LDAC issue and a ton of useless preinstalled Samsung apps (that can be disabled and/or removed, so not a huge issue, just somewhat annoying), I didn't experience any problems, everything is rock solid. There are some settings that must be changed (e.g. "put unused apps to sleep" must be disabled, "screen mode" changed to "natural"), which is, again, annoying for initial setup, but settings are available. Unexpectedly, the biggest disappointment is the camera application which is not able to properly utilize the sensor capabilities (Google Camera on the same phone is capable of much better photos). Still, there are no better phones on the US market than Samsung Galaxy Ultra series.

 

[ZolaIII]

@Oso Polar I did a lot of work with CPU schedulers on Android back in my XDA developer days (usually porting back mainline) and they don't work like that especially not the fair one which is widely adopted this day's on ARM big little architecture. Who knows what Samsung did but it didn't do it right. When I got tired I switched to Sony and stopped even unlocking (rooting) the phone (not that they are absolutely without bugs but I can live with what they are).

 

[kemmler3D]

Do you think you can hear any difference in the sound then?

Probably not if you are using LDAC with a reasonably high bitrate.

LDAC is still a lossless codec

You meant lossy I think.

Development will probably move forward so that it eliminates the need for cables, under all conditions.

We're more or less already there if you use a wifi streamer like Arlyic, Sonos, WiiM, etc. However, peer-to-peer wifi streaming in the way that BT works is still rare / nonexistent.

 

[ZolaIII]

Probably not if you are using LDAC with a reasonably high bitrate.

You meant lossy I think.

We're more or less already there if you use a wifi streamer like Arlyic, Sonos, WiiM, etc. However, peer-to-peer wifi streaming in the way that BT works is still rare / nonexistent.

There is a little things called WiFi direct and present for a long time now.

 

[kemmler3D]

There is a little things called WiFi direct and present for a long time now.

Yes, but implementations that can stream audio directly from e.g. a phone or TV to a streamer without a wifi network are rare, I'm not even sure if any exist...

 

[ZolaIII]

Yes, but implementations that can stream audio directly from e.g. a phone or TV to a streamer without a wifi network are rare, I'm not even sure if any exist...

Yamaha for example supports WiFi direct on their R-N range for a long time now. It's not a great implementation but it's there.

 

[kemmler3D]

Yamaha for example supports WiFi direct on their R-N range for a long time now. It's not a great implementation but it's there.

Hmm, so it does, interesting. How does it work in practice?

 

[Oso Polar]

I did a lot of work with CPU schedulers on Android back in my XDA developer days (usually porting back mainline) and they don't work like that especially not the fair one which is widely adopted this day's on ARM big little architecture. Who knows what Samsung did but it didn't do it right. When I got tired I switched to Sony and stopped even unlocking (rooting) the phone (not that they are absolutely without bugs but I can live with what they are).

For sure Samsung tweaks lots of things in their kernels and screwed something here, this is not something I've experienced with any other Android phone, even many, many years back (Android 2.x times). If LDAC bitrate is forced to 909 or 990 and user is interacting with the phone, music starts to stutter, cut out, distort etc. This is unbelievable given all the CPU power the device has but this is how it is... At least it plays everything well if phone is just left alone (at which point it actually runs at much lower CPU frequency but is able to process sound without any issues - unlike during interactive use).

Spoiler

I find it peculiar that there are still some people that use Sony phones. Overpriced junk. Sony should have closed their mobile division ten years ago or so - nothing but losses, deservedly.

You meant lossy I think.

Yes, sure. Not lossless.

Hmm, so it does, interesting. How does it work in practice?

Yeah, very interesting. Usually it is Google Chromecast (on Android) or AirPlay (Apple). Which is actually just fine for AV receivers - anyway there is a Wi-Fi network at home. Lossless streaming for portable devices will be much more interesting and I'm not aware of them. :-/