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Is it possible to "upgrade" my phono stage?

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keiron99

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I have a Technics SL1200G, AT OC9 XSH MC cartridge, going into a Lehmann Black Cube SE II phono stage, Rotel and and Harbeth M30 speakers. Sounds nice.

I have, in the past, had several phono stages come and go at various price points (about £50 to £750) and, to be honest, was never really able to tell much difference. I can't even remember how I settled on the one I have.

Anyway, having see the stellar review of the Classic Audio MC Pro stage on this forum, my interest has been piqued.

I know a big thing is made hear of noise and distortion, though I can't pretend to understand the science behind it all. But here are the stats:

Lehmann:

SNR (RMS unweighted): 63db
Channel separation: >80db at 10khz
THD: "not specified" (and I can't find any independent measured tests)


compared to the Classic Audio MC Pro:

SNR (220Hz to 22khz): 81.5db
Channel separation: >80db at 10khz
THD: <0.0005%, 20Hz to 22kHz, at 21V RMS


In short: would I actually hear any improvement were I to make a change?
 
The SNR if the Lehmann is possibly OK. It's probably better than you can expect from an LP. The separation is certainly much better than you can get from an LP.

It's quite possible that the distortion figures are also better than an LP, but I do wonder why you can't find this out.

Probably more important is overload margin - because of the gain and RIAA equalisation, quite a lot of phono stages run out of headroom. This means clicks can drive the amp into instability and it can take a while to recover.
 
Based on your own comment "sounds nice" I'd genuinely suggest that you don't go chasing marginal returns from tweaking your phono stage ... enjoy your music.

There's a reason for that suggestion. Any change or improvement that you may make in TT -> Phono stage -> Amp is completely dwarfed by changes you can make to your speakers or to your speaker/room interaction ... it's that significant.
Enjoy your music, but if you want to look for improvements or changes then look at the parts that make a difference first.

Analogies are not helpful, especially car analogies ... but it's like changing the tires on your car vs changing your car! (then when you have the car sorted, perhaps new tires might help ... but it's not the place to start)
 
In that price range I think it's a matter of taste rather than technical improvement. Is there anything in particular you don't like about the sound you're getting?
 
keiron99 said:
to be honest, was never really able to tell much difference.
Click to expand...
And now, why do you expect any difference?
MaxwellsEq said:
Probably more important is overload margin - because of the gain and RIAA equalisation, quite a lot of phono stages run out of headroom. This means clicks can drive the amp into instability and it can take a while to recover.
Click to expand...
The measurements from Stereoplay look good, also especially in this respect 'headroom'.



1698436264585.png
 
computer-audiophile said:
And now, why do you expect any difference?

The measurements from Stereoplay look good, also especially in this respect 'headroom'.



View attachment 321603
Click to expand...

I'm still slightly in the dark when it comes to preamp headroom. No one seems to know exactly how important it is with regards to surface noise. I've spoken to a few designers who have produced "low headroom" preamps and none of them seem concerned at all, except in the case of deep scratches. I veer towards the belief that the pops and clicks we tolerate as a part of the vinyl experience won't be affected. Only a huge impulse (from physical damage) could result in a signal louder than what has been pressed into the vinyl.

Having said that. I would really love to test a Darlington Labs preamp. They have a mystical reputation for veiling pops and clicks..
 
Salt said:
For pops and clicks proper cleaning may be th appropriate road to go ...
Click to expand...

I've delved that rabbit hole as far as I'm willing to go. Most records are born with pops and clicks. Proper cleaning certainly improves a used record but they press these things in dusty factories. Many of my mintest, most unsullied records contain (some) noise that no cleaning method will remove. It's baked in.
 
If it's inevitable but You like the music: learn to accept and ignore.
(For males not a problem at all, evil minded tongues tend to tell).
 
curious what people think of the SE II vs the fono mk5? for some reason the aria is so much more expensive here and so cannot afford it
 
More important than price and ultra low specs are the functionality.

1. A good steep rumble filter to filter out <20hz noise that is not good for amp nor speakers.
2. Balance control, if not elsewhere in the chain,
3. Different gain and loading options to fit MM and MC
- or get some loading plugs for even better tuning possibilities for MM
4. Immunity against noise/interference
— small unit may be easier to locate in an optimal spot.
 
If the RIAA curve may be different then the sound of course will change a little bit. What I see in the Lehman graph is that the mains power 50 Hz and harmonics of it is bleeding through. But this could be due to a not properly test setup. Distortion is better or in the range of LP, same with noise. To my opinion swap the Lehmann would not give a great improvement. Output impedance it sufficient low to drive a line input without frequency response degrading.
 
Last edited:
If You get a warm and fuzzy feeling from the knowledge that Your new phono preamp has higher SNR, then by all means why not, if You got extra money to spend. The placebo effect may even make You think that the sound quality has improved.

On the other hand, You don't gain any real and meaningful improvement in sound quality, so I suggest that You are better off saving Your money, or spending it on listenig room acoustics improvement.
 
Well schitt‘s creek! With an Ortofon bronze and a 1200mk5, what’s will be the best and most reliable phono preamp? I want the Crown Jewels, the bees knees, op-amps begone:
-Black Cube II SE
-Parasound JC3 uncle junior
-Stellar
-Good Note PH5
-Music Hall A3
-Fidelice
-Rega aria
-Hegel v10
-Phonomena 3

Most of the listening will be done with both eyes closed, petting one dog, drinking Oban 18yr. Wall paint is ”American white”, no pun intended. I want headroom y’all! Obrigado.
 
Last edited:
jquest55 said:
Well schitt‘s creek! With an Ortofon bronze and a 1200mk5, what’s will be the best and most reliable phono preamp? I want the Crown Jewels, the bees knees, op-amps begone:
-Black Cube II SE
-Parasound JC3 uncle junior
-Stellar
-Good Note PH5
-Music Hall A3
-Fidelice
-Rega aria
-Hegel v10
-Phonomena 3

Most of the listening will be done with both eyes closed, petting one dog, drinking Oban 18yr. Wall paint is ”American white”, no pun intended. I want headroom y’all! Obrigado.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I’ve been impressed by the engineering and construction of the Classic Audio Spartan and MM Pro preamps. I have older Bryston gear that will never die, so I’m less inclined to more experiments given my current satisfaction level. But, if I were looking, the Classic Audio products would be a good place to look.

I also have a Sutherland Insight which I purchased before the Bryston. I really enjoyed it, but it seemed more “laid back” than the more forward Bryston. I’m sure there is a measurable explanation, but I have not seen the Sutherland measured.

The advantage the Sutherland has over the Classic Audio Spartan is that it is adaptable to both MM and MC cartridges, as well as MI carts with unusual gain/loading combinations.
 
This is where a good bricks and mortar dealer can come in handy.

Something you can try on a loan and use your sighted subjective unreliable despicable biased ears to see what you think!

Hope you get to have some fun with this!
 
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