Is a tweeter with waveguide a horn speaker?

[DanielT]

Is there an accepted definition of what respectively, horn / waveguide is? Or are the definitions blurred?

Or, ..how should you really see that? A horn speaker amplifies the sound acoustically. So does a tweeter equipped with a waveguide. But why do people sometimes talk about horns loaded tweeters, is not it the same as tweeter with a waveguide?

Or should it be a compression driver with a horn equipped, to be considered a horn?

 

[tomtoo]

Calling a dome with a 1 inch deep waveguide a horn is like calling a 300m hill a mountain.

 

[DanielT]

Calling a dome with a 1 inch deep waveguide a horn is like calling a 300m hill a mountain.

He he.

But for those who live in a country with a flat landscape, it may be a mountain.

This with horn-waveguides may not matter so much, the definition that is but I'm a little curious.

 

[alex-z]

IMO, the distinction comes from the intended use. A horn impedance matches the diaphragm to the air for higher sensitivity. A waveguide controls directivity. There is some overlap in functional terms, but you won't see dome tweeters in horns, or compression drivers in waveguides. The applications are just much different. Even the RP-600M is more of a waveguide, albeit with a small horn segment preceding it.

 

[Rednaxela]

But for those who live in a country with a flat landscape, it may be a mountain.

Yeah 300m is super high!

 

[DanielT]

IMO, the distinction comes from the intended use. A horn impedance matches the diaphragm to the air for higher sensitivity. A waveguide controls directivity. There is some overlap in functional terms, but you won't see dome tweeters in horns, or compression drivers in waveguides. The applications are just much different. Even the RP-600M is more of a waveguide, albeit with a small horn segment preceding it.

So they both do, to some extent, the same thing, guiding the sound in a desirable way and amplifying it acoustically (with different variation how much) BUT in different configuration, with different drivers, or tweeters.

Horns, the first thing I think of is the acoustic amplification with waveguide, which said what it's called that it does.

 

[DanielT]

Here I took a horn, just at random, intended for compression drivers. If I were to take it and install a traditional dome tweeter in it i would get? A mismatch probably but a, hm I do not know, an abomination maybe?

B&C ME90 1.4 "Constant Directivity Horn 80x60 4-Bolt




Note nothing I was going to do, with that B&C ME90.If I want to experiment, I can saw apart some plastic funnels and glue tweeters in them. Which I did not intend to do either.

 

[Tangband]

Is there an accepted definition of what respectively, horn / waveguide is? Or are the definitions blurred?

Or, ..how should you really see that? A horn speaker amplifies the sound acoustically. So does a tweeter equipped with a waveguide. But why do people sometimes talk about horns loaded tweeters, is not it the same as tweeter with a waveguide?

Or should it be a compression driver with a horn equipped, to be considered a horn?

A waveguide is working the same way as a horn - both rises the sensitivity at some freq , both changes directivity ( more narrow ) and both lowers the distortion at certain freq - if the waveguide and horn is correctly executed.

A waveguide or a horn is no magical bullet for really good sound. In a two way loudspeaker its very needed to use a waveguide , but the best sound for home use I have ever heard has come from dsp active 5- way loudspeakers where waveguides are not needed.

 

[DanielT]

A waveguide is working the same way as a horn - both rises the sensitivity at some freq , both changes directivity ( more narrow ) and both lowers the distortion at certain freq - if the waveguide and horn is correctly executed.

A waveguide or a horn is no magical bullet for really good sound. In a two way loudspeaker its very needed to use a waveguide , but the best sound for home use I have ever heard has come from dsp active 5- way loudspeakers where waveguides are not needed.

Speaker with narrow baffle, without waveguide in the tweeter, well that's probably a challenge.

Take this popular tweeter: SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4.

Here are off axes repons, but it is probably measured on an infinite baffle, or according to some other standard size on baffle size:

SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4 | HiFiCompass

The THD measurements at distance of 315 mm and voltage levels 2.83 - 8 Volt were carried out with High Pass Filter "on" (2nd order Buttreworth type, 500 Hz cutoff, HPF2-500). The THD measurements at distance of 315 mm and voltage level 11.2 Volt were carried out with High Pass Filter "on" (2nd...

hificompass.com

By the way, here's that tweeter in McFly's Revel M105 Copy DIY build. He, like Revel, uses a waveguide with that tweeter in those speakers. :

Revel M105 Copy DIY build

After seeing the success of Directiva, But knowing the price, I wanted a nice small pair of passive bookshelf speakers for use in the second living room. I didn't need massive SPLs (if you need more SPLs the Directiva is much better - however that build is DSP XO + Multi Channel amplified). The...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[tomtoo]

The question if a dome with a wg is a horn, remindes me on this scene.

 

[DanielT]

The question if a dome with a wg is a horn, remindes me on this scene.

I think I can see a pattern in you tomtoo ..., small heights that are not mountains,a dome with a wg is a horn.It gives:



He speaks English in the video:

 

[MZKM]

Essentially the same thing in my book.

Only distinction I maybe can make is that a horn has different parts:

Whereas a waveguide is usually like a faceplate that goes on top/around the driver:

 

[tomtoo]

Its wording. Imagine someone say i have a horn speaker and then shows you a jbl 305? No, never i could never call this a horn speaker.

 

[tomtoo]

Thats a dome with a wg.

https://cdn.webshopapp.com/shops/188510/files/297954717/890x820x2/monacor-dt-25n-1-dome-tweeter-with-waveguide.jpg

Would you call this a horn speaker???
Never ever.

Thats a horn.

https://community.klipsch.com/uploads/monthly_2020_06/k55k700.jpg.7334f4c1d3cec26330b3339bd72e7e6a.jpg

 

[Tangband]

Speaker with narrow baffle, without waveguide in the tweeter, well that's probably a challenge.

Take this popular tweeter: SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4.
View attachment 209229
Here are off axes repons, but it is probably measured on an infinite baffle, or according to some other standard size on baffle size:

View attachment 209231

SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4 | HiFiCompass

The THD measurements at distance of 315 mm and voltage levels 2.83 - 8 Volt were carried out with High Pass Filter "on" (2nd order Buttreworth type, 500 Hz cutoff, HPF2-500). The THD measurements at distance of 315 mm and voltage level 11.2 Volt were carried out with High Pass Filter "on" (2nd...

hificompass.com

By the way, here's that tweeter in McFly's Revel M105 Copy DIY build. He, like Revel, uses a waveguide with that tweeter in those speakers. :

Revel M105 Copy DIY build

After seeing the success of Directiva, But knowing the price, I wanted a nice small pair of passive bookshelf speakers for use in the second living room. I didn't need massive SPLs (if you need more SPLs the Directiva is much better - however that build is DSP XO + Multi Channel amplified). The...

audiosciencereview.com

My own experience, after building the HYBRID with monacor w300 waveguide, is that using a waveguide lessens diffraction problems. This is another advantage of using a waveguide.

Slim baffle with sharp corners and no waveguide is very hard to do without massive diffractions. You have to place the tweeter and midrange assymetrical on the baffle.
There is a very good simulation program called EDGE where you can try simulate different placement of a tweeter and midrange. Having used this program , I finally gave up and started the building of HYBRID with a waveguide.
In my Genelec 8340, there is a waveguide for the tweeter and also rounded corners on the cabinet and thats optimal.
The ripple I can see with my own measurements is very low, less than 0,3 dB.

You can also read GRIMM audios white paper - combining a very wide baffle with rounded corners, with a waveguide tweeter is technically a very good solution.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Or should it be a compression driver with a horn equipped, to be considered a horn?

I've always regarded a 'horn' as requiring a compression driver. The combination of compression driver and horn gives the extreme efficiency needed. A 'waveguide' is strictly for dispersion control and doesn't go for efficiency per se.

 

[DanielT]

My own experience, after building the HYBRID with monacor w300 waveguide, is that using a waveguide lessens diffraction problems. This is another advantage of using a waveguide.

Slim baffle with sharp corners and no waveguide is very hard to do without massive diffractions. You have to place the tweeter and midrange assymetrical on the baffle.
There is a very good simulation program called EDGE where you can try simulate different placement of a tweeter and midrange. Having used this program , I finally gave up and started the building of HYBRID with a waveguide.
In my Genelec 8340, there is a waveguide for the tweeter and also rounded corners on the cabinet and thats optimal.
The ripple I can see with my own measurements is very low, less than 0,3 dB.

You can also read GRIMM audios white paper - combining a very wide baffle with rounded corners, with a waveguide tweeter is technically a very good solution.

DIY in the thread, nice. I think.

Good work! They look good. Are you happy?:

HYBRID - a loudspeaker with dsp crossover

Hi. I will tell a little about a project that started in Sweden and in the beginning was a passive loudspeaker. The goals where to create a good loudspeaker with good directivity with driveunits that were good but not really expensive. This passive loudspeaker were not developed by me. I bought...

audiosciencereview.com

Edge, a free program I see:

Home of the Edge

Here are a few different horns / waveguides. Note how the concepts of waveguides and horns are mixed well among the manufacturers. That is, the saying horns / waveguide, or just the one and the other a little randomly as I perceive it. I may be wrong in my observation. :

Home

Explore our stock of horns and waveguides. Find the partner for your horn driver to deliver midrange and high frequencies, with reliable range and coverage.

www.parts-express.com

Here for those who have access to 3D printers:

Waveguides | somasonus

www.somasonus.net

 

[Katji]

He he.
But for those who live in a country with a flat landscape, it may be a mountain.

Yeah 300m is super high!

Ja, it's relative, it depends how high you are.

 

[tomtoo]

Ja, it's relative, it depends how high you are.

Vaalserberg - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Did not know, ok lets say a 50m hill.


".....is a mountain with a height of 322.4 metres.." hehe.....but ok.

Its all relative.

 

[Rednaxela]

See?