Inferior Parts in EXPENSIVE components

[Thomas savage]

You are falling in to the trap of supposing that more expensive equals better.
Two components of the same electrical value , you would need to make two assemblies and compare them blind.
Keith.

dic did this with the B1 years ago...

 

[Thomas savage]

Well you would think the end cost would reflect this belief then.

if you think these small companies are making shed loads your very much mistaken mike. the manufactorers get royally f*$ked by the distribution and dealer network... royally mike where the sun dont shine.

 

[Mivera]

if you think these small companies are making shed loads your very much mistaken mike.

I have been building speakers for over 20 years. I know what it costs to build them with both cheap parts, and expensive parts. I realize companies like Vivid have a lot of mouths to feed using this approach of the manufacturer/distributor/dealer sales model, but I'm talking about more of value to the end user.

Either way depending how you look at it nothing is over priced as long as the end user is happy with it. Vivid did a very good job at what they set out to do, and this is why so many people own them.

Besides you were the one posting the photo's in the inferior parts thread.

 

[Thomas savage]

all high end audio is over priced, one of the factors in this is the guys designing the gear who set up on their own rather than work for KEF or Pionear dont know bugger all about running a business and even worse know nothing about manufacturing. running a design and manufacturing operation is a whole lot more complex than you think mike. much like running a restaurant is a whole lot more difficult than throwing good dinner parties for you mates.

my thoughts about the x overs run independent from your insistence that the company is cutting corners to make more money. that a guy i know well enough to see how honest he is, is according to you lying to my face.

 

[Purité Audio]

You really have to look at pro audio for value for money.
Eventually I suspect a great many more manufacturers wil sell directly to the customer.
Keith

 

[Mivera]

all high end audio is over priced, one of the factors in this is the guys designing the gear who set up on their own rather than work for KEF or Pionear dont know bugger all about running a business and even worse know nothing about manufacturing. running a design and manufacturing operation is a whole lot more complex than you think mike. much like running a restaurant is a whole lot more difficult than throwing good dinner parties for you mates.

Maybe, but I also know what products I can buy as an end user that will deliver the highest performance for my hard earned dollar. When I'm shopping for products, what I get for my money is #1 to me. But it does help having 20 years experience building speakers to know what to look for.

 

[Mivera]

You really have to look at pro audio for value for money.
Eventually I suspect a great many more manufacturers wil sell directly to the customer.
Keith

Well if you start selling the Phison products, you'll be able to offer great value to the end user as well. Because Sonny sells to dealers direct with no distributor in between. He's also not greedy.

 

[Purité Audio]

Phison has IMO a good fiscal model, well engineered product which is relatively inexpensive.
Keith.

 

[Thomas savage]

Maybe, but I also know what products I can buy as an end user that will deliver the highest performance for my hard earned dollar. When I'm shopping for products, what I get for my money is #1 to me. But it does help having 20 years experience building speakers to know what to look for.

yes you have a DIY attitude, you think about your cost to buy components and build one offs with a bit of CNC work. that's not a reference for a manufacturing business mike. nor is it fair to condemn the whole world for providing products to a market at a modest profit\loss. its the distributor\dealer dynamic coupled with the lack of manufacturing knowledge and scale that pushes up the price of audio products. especially ones like vivid that are very very non regular to build. its not a simple bit of CnC.

really mike, dic did not go to vivid audio to make high profit and easy to manufacture speakers! he kind of done the opposite.

a lot of the small medium sized hifi companies are amature hour when it comes to making things easy to manufacture. they dont think about it, they just make what they think is best and try and sell it... a lot of wasted money for sure, very indulgent too but who can blame them.

 

[Mivera]

yes you have a DIY attitude, you think about your cost to buy components and build one offs with a bit of CNC work. that's not a reference for a manufacturing business mike. nor is it fair to condemn the whole world for providing products to a market at a modest profit\loss. its the distributor\dealer dynamic coupled with the lack of manufacturing knowledge and scale that pushes up the price of audio products. especially ones like vivid that are very very non regular to build. its not a simple bit of CnC.

There's other products out there from honest businesses that sell direct, or manufacturer/distributor direct as well you know. I'm not just talking about the cost to build things myself. But anyways I'm not in the passive speaker business. So people can choose what ever floats their boat for the price they want to pay. But if I'm asked to recommend something, it will be from a direct sales manufacturer that sells the same level of product for 1/3rd the cost.

 

[Thomas savage]

There's other products out there from honest businesses that sell direct, or manufacturer/distributor direct as well you know. I'm not just talking about the cost to build things myself. But anyways I'm not in the passive speaker business. so people can choose what ever floats their boat for the price they want to pay. But if I'm asked to recommend something, it will be from a direct sales manufacturer that sells the same level of product for 1/3rd the cost.

i agree with you, i think audio is a joke in many ways. i agree with your business model. i dont know why vivid dont just deal direct and just employ regional reps. you could pick up their speakers for half the price. lets face it, 10-15k is fair price 25+ is silly imo. but you can't blame the manufacturers mike, that's all we disagree on.

what will be fun for you and may be hard is who pays the advertising budget, who pushes the products to review? that is what the distributor does, that their function. but without that money who is going to pay in your model??

have you looked into the cost of establishing brand value and market presence? who is paying for that?

 

[Mivera]

i agree with you, i think audio is a joke in many ways. i agree with your business model. i dont know why vivid dont just deal direct and just employ regional reps. you could pick up their speakers for half the price. lets face it, 10-15k is fair price 25+ is silly imo. but you can't blame the manufacturers mike, that's all we disagree on.

what will be fun for you and may be hard is who pays the advertising budget, who pushes the products to review? that is what the distributor does, that their function. but without that money who is going to pay in your model??

Sonny already has a unit submitted to 6 moons and is working on more. However I don't believe that magazines/online publications are the holy grail when it comes to proving a product's value. I'm more into bucking trends and doing things in ways that make the most sense to me.

 

[Thomas savage]

yes i hate the hi fi press with a passion and agree with your sentiments but brand is what establishes people's confidence and sense of value. its the macro element that reaches far and wide, your sentiments are micro in nature. i rather agree with you but the humans are a fickle bunch, you're now dealing in a world that's beyond your sentiments, if you want to sell into it you have to play the game imo and that costs $$$£££.

anyway this has nothing to do with parts (well brand is a part but..)

i like what your doing and agree with you belive it or not but the world is not populated by guys like me.

6moons is a advertising hoarding imo see if you can get a unit to HIFI PIG in the UK. might be a good start for you over here.

 

[Mivera]

yes i hate the hi fi press with a passion and agree with your sentiments but brand is what establishes people's confidence and sense of value. its the macro element that reaches far and wide, your sentiments are micro in nature. i rather agree with you but the humans are a fickle bunch, you're now dealing in a world that's beyond your sentiments, if you want to sell into it you have to play the game imo and that costs $$$£££.

anyway this has nothing to do with parts (well brand is a part but..)

i like what your doing and agree with you belive it or not but the world is not populated by guys like me.

Well it's a good thing that I won't need 99% of the market share to get by. The other 1% would be more than enough for me. If Phison decides to join the rat race, expect the Phison products to at least double in price. Not my call.

I'm not distributing in the UK, so talk to Keith about that.

 

[Purité Audio]

We are trying to get HiFi Plus to review the Phison pre and power amp, Sonny and Alan are communicating directly, the magazine have generously sent me a 'media package' ( how much to advertise) we shall see if one is dependent upon the other!
Keith.

 

[Mivera]

We are trying to get HiFi Plus to review the Phison pre and power amp, Sonny and Alan are communicating directly, the magazine have generously sent me a 'media package' ( how much to advertise) we shall see if one is dependent upon the other!
Keith.

That's good news!

 

[Thomas savage]

its ok keith is playing the game maybe i can pop up and listen to the whole combo then we can fill up a thread on how great the Phison stuff is.. that will help, if it is great that is

 

[Mivera]

its ok keith is playing the game maybe i can pop up and listen to the whole combo then we can fill up a thread on how great the Phison stuff is.. that will help, if it is great that is

You should probably just order a combo through me before Keith is an official dealer. Price might go up by then

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Based on what I have read here from Mike , I still don;t get what is inferior about the parts used in the Vivid crossovers. It seems the speakers deliver on most counts .. Would they deliver more with other, "better" parts? I don't know. At this point of my audiophile life.. "Better" needs to be ...better established. Price is not a good metric of superiority.

 

[Mivera]

Hi

Based on what I have read here from Mike , I still don;t get what is inferior about the parts used in the Vivid crossovers. It seems the speakers deliver on most counts .. Would they deliver more with other, "better" parts? I don't know. At this point of my audiophile life.. "Better" needs to be ...better established. Price is not a good metric of superiority.

It doesn't really matter. If you have the money, and you're satisfied with the product at the price point, that's all that matters.