hi frantz
the measured performance would remain unchanged by audiophile components.
the measured performance would remain unchanged by audiophile components.
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Inferior Parts in EXPENSIVE components
- Thread starter iridium
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Mivera
Major Contributor
Except after listening at high levels for extended period's. This is when I really notice the saturation in the highs with cheap sand cast resistors like the Bennics. When the resistors heat up so hot you can light a cigarette off of them, their measured specs aren't the same either. I once opened up a set to upgrade the parts and seen the Bennic resistor had melted half way into the side of a cap it was placed too close too. After that I upgraded to the Lynk metal oxide. It was a huge improvement. From there it was the Mills wire wound, and another big step up. Now I stick with the Dueland C.A.S.T's and they are the most transparent I've heard yet.
But all snake oil so no point of sharing this experience.
http://solen.ca/product-category/resistors/wirewound-resistors/
http://solen.ca/product-category/resistors/lynk-metal-oxide-resistors/
http://www.partsconnexion.com/resistors_mills_mra12.html
http://www.partsconnexion.com/resistors_duelund_cast.html
Mike, is there a test we could run on a low-quality and high-quality crossover *component* to determine the merit of one against the other?
Mivera
Major Contributor
Depends on the component. Caps are hard to test without very expensive gear. I'm sure resistors can be tested under different operating conditions. Like when you can light a cigarette off of them I can imagine the resistance is not the same as when they are at room temperature. Inductors should be able to be tested with the right gear as well. But the reason I suggested asking Mundorf is because they have an extensive lineup of caps, resistors and coils at all different quality/price points. I'm sure they have tested the differences in their extensive range and could provide better data than we will be able to come up with.
There are of course different grades of capacitors/resistors. What I am looking for is in the specific context of crossovers which cap/resistors you think make a difference and can we construct some test to tease that out.
Mivera
Major Contributor
Well I would love to test some. I have a massive bin here. Most passive speaker designers simply tune their speakers by combination of known measurement standards, and subjective tests. So if using specific components can allow them to reach their goal of passing both measured and subjective testing, it doesn't matter what's used I guess. But they should be tested under different operating conditions as well.
In Magico's top speaker they charge an extra $44000 just to upgrade the caps to Mundorf Supreme Evo's and make a couple minor driver tweaks to the mid and tweeter only! It probably added under $1000 to the cost of the speaker to do this.
http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index...erence-component-magico-q7-mk-ii-loudspeakers
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NorthSky
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This is a very good discussion about speaker's crossover parts used in them.
In professional audio reviews it is hardly discussed, and IMO it should.
If we look @ all the crossovers of speakers that are reviewed by pro audio reviewers, and not just @ the latest drivers technology, that would be good.
And if you have a midrange driver in a $100,000 speaker; it should be able to handle high orchestral classical music power, and high level of heavy metal music.
But some do and some don't. And Mike knows about speaker's drivers too, not just about longevity of superior crossover parts. ...Under real life music challenges/stress, long term.
This discussion with Mike, Tom, Vivid's people, Keith, Frantz and Amir is stuff that I truly enjoy reading about and learning from.
And I'm sure more attracted by solid looking women with a good head on their shoulders as I am in the parts comprised inside a loudspeaker.
I guess I'm just a good customer with full awareness to please my brain and ears. ...All my emotional human senses. ...Because life, music matters.
In professional audio reviews it is hardly discussed, and IMO it should.
If we look @ all the crossovers of speakers that are reviewed by pro audio reviewers, and not just @ the latest drivers technology, that would be good.
And if you have a midrange driver in a $100,000 speaker; it should be able to handle high orchestral classical music power, and high level of heavy metal music.
But some do and some don't. And Mike knows about speaker's drivers too, not just about longevity of superior crossover parts. ...Under real life music challenges/stress, long term.
This discussion with Mike, Tom, Vivid's people, Keith, Frantz and Amir is stuff that I truly enjoy reading about and learning from.
And I'm sure more attracted by solid looking women with a good head on their shoulders as I am in the parts comprised inside a loudspeaker.
I guess I'm just a good customer with full awareness to please my brain and ears. ...All my emotional human senses. ...Because life, music matters.
Sometimes its not the better quality of the component, the lesser quality one can be "sounding better", for example, if you put high enough voltage across a carbon resistor, it will start to add second harmonic to the signal as it passes through it, and that coloration can sound better. Every component contributes something, sometime audible and sometimes just in longevity or in staying in original tolerances longer, etc.
The thing that hurt objectivists a long time ago was denying that a capacitor had an impact on sound, but of course, as in all things, when you dive deeper you do find differences. Of course, audibility is the real issue. That AP that Amir has, it can show by measurements the difference to a signal passing through various quality capacitors for example, its a powerful machine designed to eek out the differences in any thing an audio signal passes through.
The thing that hurt objectivists a long time ago was denying that a capacitor had an impact on sound, but of course, as in all things, when you dive deeper you do find differences. Of course, audibility is the real issue. That AP that Amir has, it can show by measurements the difference to a signal passing through various quality capacitors for example, its a powerful machine designed to eek out the differences in any thing an audio signal passes through.
NorthSky
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Some people prefer $400 soft dome (textile cotton) tweeters. Others prefer $800 ribbon tweeters. The sound we prefer is irrelevant of prices.
Inexpensive crossover parts installed by speaker's manufacturers could represent their own "sound" preference with their design.
Did they check all the variables, and @ all price points? ...Only them know that for certain.
And if us, we have the freedom and knowledge to push that envelope further, by experimentation, both in real life subjectivity and from objective measurements, plus stress testing for longevity and reliability...the more power to us for our initiative.
Someone sells a product, someone buys it, someone explores it. Life is beautiful.
Inexpensive crossover parts installed by speaker's manufacturers could represent their own "sound" preference with their design.
Did they check all the variables, and @ all price points? ...Only them know that for certain.
And if us, we have the freedom and knowledge to push that envelope further, by experimentation, both in real life subjectivity and from objective measurements, plus stress testing for longevity and reliability...the more power to us for our initiative.
Someone sells a product, someone buys it, someone explores it. Life is beautiful.
The only way is to make two identical , amp,crossovers whatever one with the bog standard cap, and the other with the same value/type audiophile component and then blind test .
Keith.
Keith.
NorthSky
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I am certain that hi-end speaker designers do that every day.
....And same for amp designers, preamp designers, DAC designers, CD player designers, turntable designers...
They, like us, we all use our most common sense in our audio hobby; our ears, and the measuring machines.
And from there we buy the products that sound good and measure good.
Then when we install them @ our homes in our rooms, we are happy audiofiles.
By scrutinizing and thinking inside the box, and looking @ the parts, we are putting ourselves vulnerable to the outside intempéries.
What do we know; we are simple mortals like all product designers, our pursuit of happiness is to never jusdge, never criticize, always accept what others are selling, spend our money on essential things like food for life, for music, for our children and for our parents and grand parents and grandchildren, brief for our family.
We are careful of who we are dealing with and their practices. Our knowledge comes from us, from our searches and experience and communication.
This is the science of audio here, not the science of business. If inferior parts give us better sound, then why buy superior parts that are more expensive?
Of course I'm a little sarcastic with that line...
But yeah Keith, I like your idea; two speakers the same but with different parts in their crossovers, then a double blind test a la HK (Harman Kardon) speaker turntable facilities.
DACs they keep improving every six months, so what you buy today for $30,000 will be improved tomorrow for $300.
We only use our common sense, and with the parts that come with it. ...All in the goal of higher level of music listening satisfaction.
We're not in it for the money rewards, our job is our hobby, our passion, our music pleasure, our food on the table, our families...children, grandchildren, parents, grand parents, our hobby is the pursuit of happiness, with all the parts, and better parts ring better than lesser parts.
Common sense, audio science, and business plan comprehension. We take our side as it's the right side.
♦ Me too I was interested to learn, to discover, how we can improve an already excellent product in our own.
Some folks replace the wire harnesses in their speakers and hear a difference for the better.
Speaker drivers they all come in various flavors and prices.
Do we have to be stuck with the stock wheels that come with that brand new car we just buy for $165,000?
No, we can buy better more expensive wheels and get better performance and mileage.
What if we buy the car without wheels and simply buy our own separately? Can the car dealer cut the price down to say $157,000 (the wheels are $2,000 each), and have the car delivered without wheels, so that we can buy our own for say $10,000 (four wheels) and much better wheels for our car?
No, because we use our common sense and nobody buy a car without wheels, or we can ask the dealer to simply put the ones we like better, for extra charge, like $20,000 more.
Custom made speakers...DACs, amps, preamps, ...
....And same for amp designers, preamp designers, DAC designers, CD player designers, turntable designers...
They, like us, we all use our most common sense in our audio hobby; our ears, and the measuring machines.
And from there we buy the products that sound good and measure good.
Then when we install them @ our homes in our rooms, we are happy audiofiles.
By scrutinizing and thinking inside the box, and looking @ the parts, we are putting ourselves vulnerable to the outside intempéries.
What do we know; we are simple mortals like all product designers, our pursuit of happiness is to never jusdge, never criticize, always accept what others are selling, spend our money on essential things like food for life, for music, for our children and for our parents and grand parents and grandchildren, brief for our family.
We are careful of who we are dealing with and their practices. Our knowledge comes from us, from our searches and experience and communication.
This is the science of audio here, not the science of business. If inferior parts give us better sound, then why buy superior parts that are more expensive?
Of course I'm a little sarcastic with that line...
But yeah Keith, I like your idea; two speakers the same but with different parts in their crossovers, then a double blind test a la HK (Harman Kardon) speaker turntable facilities.
DACs they keep improving every six months, so what you buy today for $30,000 will be improved tomorrow for $300.
We only use our common sense, and with the parts that come with it. ...All in the goal of higher level of music listening satisfaction.
We're not in it for the money rewards, our job is our hobby, our passion, our music pleasure, our food on the table, our families...children, grandchildren, parents, grand parents, our hobby is the pursuit of happiness, with all the parts, and better parts ring better than lesser parts.
Common sense, audio science, and business plan comprehension. We take our side as it's the right side.
♦ Me too I was interested to learn, to discover, how we can improve an already excellent product in our own.
Some folks replace the wire harnesses in their speakers and hear a difference for the better.
Speaker drivers they all come in various flavors and prices.
Do we have to be stuck with the stock wheels that come with that brand new car we just buy for $165,000?
No, we can buy better more expensive wheels and get better performance and mileage.
What if we buy the car without wheels and simply buy our own separately? Can the car dealer cut the price down to say $157,000 (the wheels are $2,000 each), and have the car delivered without wheels, so that we can buy our own for say $10,000 (four wheels) and much better wheels for our car?
No, because we use our common sense and nobody buy a car without wheels, or we can ask the dealer to simply put the ones we like better, for extra charge, like $20,000 more.
Custom made speakers...DACs, amps, preamps, ...
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no, high level speaker designers dont agonise and become neurotic over x-over components. that's what audiophiles do.. they certainly dont spend every waking hour trying to hear the difference between caps that have the same measured function and performance. they design through the known variables of engineering practise they understand and can have control over.. 
and when they are done they can explain exactly why the speaker performs as it does because they understand what they have done. they dont rely on myths and legends or hear say.. thats our job
they dont rely on common sense they have expertise and real knowledge and experience, this at times can contradict common sense.
we rely on common sense, the people who know rely on their specialist knowledge.
and when they are done they can explain exactly why the speaker performs as it does because they understand what they have done. they dont rely on myths and legends or hear say.. thats our jobthey dont rely on common sense they have expertise and real knowledge and experience, this at times can contradict common sense.
we rely on common sense, the people who know rely on their specialist knowledge.
Mivera
Major Contributor
no, high level speaker designers dont agonise and become neurotic over x-over components. that's what audiophiles do.. they certainly dont spend every waking hour trying to hear the difference between caps that have the same measured function and performance. they design through the known variables of engineering practise they understand and can have control over..
You are basing this on what you heard from a designer who basically did some designs for a big corporate entity. Most speaker designers do test several different types of components and mix and match for the best subjective sound. It's only the mass market companies who don't really care. For these guys turning over volume at the highest profit margin is #1
thats nonsense.
Mivera
Major Contributor
Do you really think most high end speakers out there use Bennic components? None that I would recommend anyways. I don't see any Bennic components here. Do you think it's just for marketing?
http://magico.net/technology/crossovers.php
Designers are swayed by the expectation of their customers, Ralph (Cessaro) always bemoaned the fact that he had to fit fragile WBT connectors when a recessed
Connector would have been far less fragile.
Keith
Connector would have been far less fragile.
Keith
i dont personally know any designers who work for big corporate entities that solely focus on high profit margins... i know plenty must be out there but i dont know them.
- Thread Starter
- #98
Correct me if I am wrong about the item.
By recessed I am visualizing the round or square plastic cups with the connectors you can purchase for a few dollars.
A recess will protect any connector. Why did he not just build a recess into the cabinet and skip the moaning?
iridium.
Mivera
Major Contributor
B&W and vivid are 2 good examples.
B&W yes(but not so much with the snail but whatever, you have no clue about development costs), but dics not worked there for 20 years lol!!! vivid not at all but i dont blame you for thinking that as you dont know, you just think you do by looking at pictures. i know though, by knowing the people involved.
