ifi Zen DAC and Headphone Amp Review

[DACMagick]

I know I'm comparing two different animals, but would you say the HUD100 is better in comparison just as a budget USB headphone DAC?

 

[LtCol_Davenport]

Yeah. Apple did good partnering with Wolfson/Cirrus Logic.

Personally I own the Lighting-3.5mm one from an iPhone X, does it have the same DAC/AMP as this USB-C reviewed here?

 

[Veri]

Personally I own the Lighting-3.5mm one from an iPhone X, does it have the same DAC/AMP as this USB-C reviewed here?

It might not be the exact same but performance should be very close (if not identical).

 

[LtCol_Davenport]

Thank you. I’m using it for powering the Sundara and it works, almost always at max volume but hey..didn’t even expect that!

 

[LtCol_Davenport]

Anyway...I almost clicked "Buy Now" on eBay for this unit when I stumbled across this page, so, since I am a bit paranoiac about my purchases and i would like to be "the best" I can make, I stopped and red all of this 25 pages...and...I'm confused... :/
Yes, the measurements kind of sucks compared to others, but...do they objectively/absolutely sucks?
I mean..really..all the reviews I saw, were extremely happy about this unit, written review too, Amazon user review, for what it is worth are also all positive (in my region) and the couple negative are not about sound but like for not having a power adapter and how it handle MQA. Generally, the couple of amp/dac I saw, I always found someone disappointed by it, not with this unit.

Another thing is, here I saw people recommend other stuff "for the same price", unfortunately, I was not able to find it. Schiit products are not available outside US generally. I'm from Europe.
This Zen DAC cost 150 euro.
The comparison made here with the Topping MX3 Pro is not really fair since it cost 230 euro.
The Loxjie D30 seems better but it cost more (180-ish) and lose some features like balance in/out and MQA support. Also on the AMP portion doesn't seem a clear win as in the DAC IMO.
The stack E30+L30 cost even more at 300-ish euro and also, lose the convenience of a single unit.
The idea of using the Apple dongle + L30 it is nice, and yes, it put it on the same price BUT it is not a desktop solution, not if you do not have USB-C and also I do not have USB-C phones so cold not even take advantage of that.
Also, without considering the Zen DAC can be USB powered only, none of the options above can, this, IMO can be a big Plus if moving with a laptop for example.

I mean..is it really that bad? I find it really compelling from what I've seen (and stated). I honestly can't find a really good, fair comparison to another product on the same price, single unit, USB-powered. Am I missing out something? Because I feel really stupid in this moment keep thinking I want to buy it while almost everyone here trash it.

 

[nodiff]

I mean..is it really that bad? I find it really compelling from what I've seen (and stated). I honestly can't find a really good, fair comparison to another product on the same price, single unit, USB-powered. Am I missing out something? Because I feel really stupid in this moment keep thinking I want to buy it while almost everyone here trash it.

Hello, I think the best is to try it out at a shop if possible.

I have read the bad measurements by Amir and have always been a non-believer in Cables/DAC before giving them a try.
However when I tried the ifi Zen in a local shop I was blown away by how good it is despite my negative judgements and purchased it

They sound amazing to me and I can only describe them a magical box that makes my audio sound better. The other DAC I'm comparing it against to is the Apple USB C dongle and the Zen just feels 'fuller' which is a term that's not recognized here. I cannot pinpoint exactly which aspect sounds better but it just does to me.

No need to feel guilty buying things that measure poorly because a lot of the measurements are beyond the average human hearing. I do not have golden ears nor can I tell the difference even between 128kbps mp3 and FLAC so I buy things that makes me feel good.

Luckily the ifi Zen is really affordable and I like that it is aesthetically pleasing and works with just a USB cable. I do not own any headphones and only use my end game pair of iems ER2XR with them, so it fulfils all my goals of a nice desktop device with a analog volume knob.

The 1 con of the Zen is that when playing games theres a faint buzzing noise that only comes out of the RCA ports to my powered monitors, no such buzz from the headphone output. I have ordered a power adapter to see if it fixes it by bypassing the USB power.

Hope it helps!

 

[LtCol_Davenport]

Hello, I think the best is to try it out at a shop if possible.

I have read the bad measurements by Amir and have always been a non-believer in Cables/DAC before giving them a try.
However when I tried the ifi Zen in a local shop I was blown away by how good it is despite my negative judgements and purchased it

They sound amazing to me and I can only describe them a magical box that makes my audio sound better. The other DAC I'm comparing it against to is the Apple USB C dongle and the Zen just feels 'fuller' which is a term that's not recognized here. I cannot pinpoint exactly which aspect sounds better but it just does to me.

No need to feel guilty buying things that measure poorly because a lot of the measurements are beyond the average human hearing. I do not have golden ears nor can I tell the difference even between 128kbps mp3 and FLAC so I buy things that makes me feel good.

Luckily the ifi Zen is really affordable and I like that it is aesthetically pleasing and works with just a USB cable. I do not own any headphones and only use my end game pair of iems ER2XR with them, so it fulfils all my goals of a nice desktop device with a analog volume knob.

The 1 con of the Zen is that when playing games theres a faint buzzing noise that only comes out of the RCA ports to my powered monitors, no such buzz from the headphone output. I have ordered a power adapter to see if it fixes it by bypassing the USB power.

Hope it helps!

Unfortunately, in this period is not easy to go to a shop, also, there is no one near me so that it is not an options. That’s bad.
Anyway good to ear your experience, that was interesting! I’ll buy it only for headphone, I already have another setup for my speaker.
Let me(us) if the power adapter will change something. I’ve red that seems that if you have plugged it in to a USB 3 port with a USB 3 cable there should be no difference, but I’ll be interested in your findings too.

 

[nodiff]

Unfortunately, in this period is not easy to go to a shop, also, there is no one near me so that it is not an options. That’s bad.
Anyway good to ear your experience, that was interesting! I’ll buy it only for headphone, I already have another setup for my speaker.
Let me(us) if the power adapter will change something. I’ve red that seems that if you have plugged it in to a USB 3 port with a USB 3 cable there should be no difference, but I’ll be interested in your findings too.

I have experimented by connecting to various USB3.0 ports on my motherboard and the noise persists whenever my graphic card is under heavy use.
I will update this thread when my cheapo power supply arrives!

I also did a AB comparison between the zen and the apple DAC.
Not a blind test but volume matched with my multimeter and a 1khz test tone.
Note that this is not a blind test but the difference is big between both sources, I can definitely hear more bass from the zen compared to the apple DAC. I will too attempt a blind test when my partner comes over

 

[Frank Dernie]

I got on to ifi support. Apparently the -59db crosstalk on the Zen Can is deliberate. Not a bug. So, quick question is that crosstalk bad enough to mess up binaural audio in games like Hunt Showdown or am I imagining it?

Not IME.
When checking why CD didn't sound as much better than LP one of the things we listened to was crosstalk and at 30dB - typical of a good phono cartridge - stereo separation was as good as CD at way more, so whilst better crosstalk is easily achieved in a DAC it almost certainly won't sound any different.

 

[LaL]

@LtCol_Davenport
Can you not just buy it from Amazon in Europe?►https://Amz.run/4T3B
and if you don't like it, return it within 30 days.
Just give the reason for return as
"Performance or quality not adequate" for a full refund.

The big problem with the Zen-Dac is - it produces a warm, lush, full sound that people find very pleasing when listening to music, but it doesn't
measure well. Yes, iFi are an irritating company with their gimmicky power adapters/USB filters and the way they cripple/underpower the Amp section on some of their products(iFi Neo) to protect the market share for their more expensive products.
But they are very good at, and definitely 'on to something' when it comes to producing very engaging and natural sounding audio.

 

[Veri]

Yes, iFi are an irritating company with their gimmicky power adapters/USB filters and the way they cripple/underpower the Amp section on some of their products(iFi Neo) to protect the market share for their more expensive products.

Both of those points wouldn't really make me want to support this company
as you say, intentionally cripple things to make you upgrade eventually. Ehh.

 

[LtCol_Davenport]

@LtCol_Davenport
Can you not just buy it from Amazon in Europe?►https://Amz.run/4T3B
and if you don't like it, return it within 30 days.
Just give the reason for return as
"Performance or quality not adequate" for a full refund.

The big problem with the Zen-Dac is - it produces a warm, lush, full sound that people find very pleasing when listening to music, but it doesn't
measure well. Yes, iFi are an irritating company with their gimmicky power adapters/USB filters and the way they cripple/underpower the Amp section on some of their products(iFi Neo) to protect the market share for their more expensive products.
But they are very good at, and definitely 'on to something' when it comes to producing very engaging and natural sounding audio.

Oh yes, absolutely!
But generally I don’t like buy stuff if I’m not really sure just to test it and return it, it makes me feel a little bad, also the shop has to sell it as used at a lower price. If something it is really wrong and simply don’t like it, I have no problem returning it, but I try not to buy with already that mentality and try to pick the one I think I will be fine with.
Thank you for your specifications about why a lot of people like it but don’t measure well, didn’t know that.

 

[LaL]

Both of those points wouldn't really make me want to support this company
as you say, intentionally cripple things to make you upgrade eventually. Ehh.

In fairness, iFi are not unique, most companies do this, Sony and Cannon are legendary at crippling their consumer products.
And let's be honest in relation to this thread, the "eventual upgrade" is surely coming anyway when we're discussing a $65Amp+$65Dac entry level combo. Although having just said that, the Dac section has a certain unique sound, that I won't ever sell it on.

 

[Veri]

Although having just said that, the Dac section has a certain unique sound, that I won't ever sell it on.

Personally once I moved from the iFi micro BL, I felt like a "haze" was removed. It just doesn't resolve that well, it has sub 16-bit performance and if you have any of the quote unquote bitperfect stuff on there is definitely some things.. lost. If that's what you want, less detail and resolution and more things lost in noise then I guess it's nice? But my experience, any modern high resolution DAC should probably trump it. Or sound otherwise identical in iFi's best case scenario, that is being transparent to the source.

ASR user mansr by the way, found out iFi even forces 24-bit input data to be truncated to 18 bits with shaped dither.
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55951-ifi-foe-fum/
this is not mentioned anywhere, in the specs manual or whatever. I'd rather not get my data truncated thank you very much.

 

[LaL]

ASR user mansr by the way, found out iFi even forces 24-bit input data to be truncated to 18 bits with shaped dither.
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55951-ifi-foe-fum/
this is not mentioned anywhere, in the specs manual or whatever. I'd rather not get my data truncated thank you very much.

For me, I feel the higher voltage (4.2V)Bal lineout of the Zen-Dac helps by being clearer and a bit more detailed.
But again, let's remember the price category we're talking about.

Mansr, is definitely right about iFi's newer 5.3 MQA firmware's,
as they just kill the natural sound that is the whole point of the iFi sound signature.
You have to roll it back to the older 2016 (5.2b) firmware.
Do I believe iFi has sacrificed audio enjoyability chasing the MQA dragon, Yes.
Do I believe other companies are sacrificing audio enjoyability by creating a dry sterile sound that measures well, Yes.

The good news is by most accounts, that many of the most recent 'implementations' of top Dac's AK4499 / ESS9038 seem to be leaning on the slightly warmer side of neutral, so at least I've got that to look forward to compared to late 1990's designed Burr-Brown Dac's

 

[Jimbob54]

Personally once I moved from the iFi micro BL, I felt like a "haze" was removed. It just doesn't resolve that well, it has sub 16-bit performance and if you have any of the quote unquote bitperfect stuff on there is definitely some things.. lost. If that's what you want, less detail and resolution and more things lost in noise then I guess it's nice? But my experience, any modern high resolution DAC should probably trump it. Or sound otherwise identical in iFi's best case scenario, that is being transparent to the source.

ASR user mansr by the way, found out iFi even forces 24-bit input data to be truncated to 18 bits with shaped dither.
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55951-ifi-foe-fum/
this is not mentioned anywhere, in the specs manual or whatever. I'd rather not get my data truncated thank you very much.

A veil was lifted?

 

[LtCol_Davenport]

I have experimented by connecting to various USB3.0 ports on my motherboard and the noise persists whenever my graphic card is under heavy use.
I will update this thread when my cheapo power supply arrives!

I also did a AB comparison between the zen and the apple DAC.
Not a blind test but volume matched with my multimeter and a 1khz test tone.
Note that this is not a blind test but the difference is big between both sources, I can definitely hear more bass from the zen compared to the apple DAC. I will too attempt a blind test when my partner comes over

Well...if the Zen Dac do weird thigs when GPU (or the computer in general) is under load, that's a big problem for me, I have a GTX 1080 Ti that can take almost 300W alone! Do separate power line help/eliminate the problem?

 

[LtCol_Davenport]

Personally once I moved from the iFi micro BL, I felt like a "haze" was removed. It just doesn't resolve that well, it has sub 16-bit performance and if you have any of the quote unquote bitperfect stuff on there is definitely some things.. lost. If that's what you want, less detail and resolution and more things lost in noise then I guess it's nice? But my experience, any modern high resolution DAC should probably trump it. Or sound otherwise identical in iFi's best case scenario, that is being transparent to the source.

ASR user mansr by the way, found out iFi even forces 24-bit input data to be truncated to 18 bits with shaped dither.
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55951-ifi-foe-fum/
this is not mentioned anywhere, in the specs manual or whatever. I'd rather not get my data truncated thank you very much.

IF I understood it correctly (that's a big if!), that study was related to the GTO filter that iFi released and that many people tried (and liked more).
So is it safe to assume that with the "normal" filter that ships with, does not do it?
Also, even if it did it with every filter, isn't something related only to transmission larger than 18 bits? So CD and Spotify-like streaming music should be unaffected by it, right?

Just trying to make the point.

 

[Veri]

A veil was lifted?

I'm serious, only because the iFi just sounded hazy listening for it so long and then going to a 110+ dB SNR/SINAD 'good' DAC. Then again not a true blind test so take it with a grain of salt, but any good DAC sounds identical to me the iFi just doesn't sound like a good transparent DAC. Too much fuckery going on inside it, or the old age chip holds it back. Or I imagined things not buying one again to test it further though.

 

[pk500]

I'm serious, only because the iFi just sounded hazy listening for it so long and then going to a 110+ dB SNR/SINAD 'good' DAC. Then again not a true blind test so take it with a grain of salt, but any good DAC sounds identical to me the iFi just doesn't sound like a good transparent DAC. Too much fuckery going on inside it, or the old age chip holds it back. Or I imagined things not buying one again to test it further though.

I own a TempoTec Sonata HD Pro, which as a dongle measures comparably to some $100 desktop DACs. I just ordered an iFi Hip-Dac. So, I'll be curious to hear if my tinnitus-ravaged, almost 56-year-old ears can really tell the difference between the sound quality of these two DAC-amps.

Preferred sound signature also is in the ears of the beholder. I'm very treble-sensitive due to my pretty severe tinnitus. Can't handle most Beyerdynamics and a lot of Audio-Technicas -- which a lot of people love -- because of their hot treble. Conversely, I love the slightly rolled-off treble of the Moondrop Starfield and am not terribly offended by the warm bass and rolled-off treble of my Meze 99 Classics (which I know are NOWHERE near reference or neutral).

So, the warmer, Burr-Brown sound of the Hip-Dac may be an ideal sonic ticket for me.

Horses for courses, people.