IEMs close to Harman curve?

[wwenze]

I don't quite understand why anyone is seeking strict adherence to the average of a preference survey.

Because of casuality.

Say 80% of users like that FR. That means an earphone using that FR will be liked by 80% of users.

Personally I found myself tracking well to the "flat-bass" version of the target.

 

[preload]

In other words: I've found the Harman curve useful for making the HD800 one of the most enjoyable headphones I've ever heard, but that's about it. And even there, even with extreme metal like Meshuggah or Car Bomb, I don't prefer it set all the way to Harman values.

Does Oratory use an identical measurement rig to Harman's? If not, and they're using straight Harman-target values on their charts, you're not actually EQ'ing to the Harman curve. Rather, you're EQ'ing to a corrupted Harman curve that is altered by the transfer function between the Oratory rig and the Harman rig.

So, it's hard to say the Harman curve is faulty without using headphone measurements used on Harman's rig.

 

[MayaTlab]

Does Oratory use an identical measurement rig to Harman's? If not, and they're using straight Harman-target values on their charts, you're not actually EQ'ing to the Harman curve. Rather, you're EQ'ing to a corrupted Harman curve that is altered by the transfer function between the Oratory rig and the Harman rig.

So, it's hard to say the Harman curve is faulty without using headphone measurements used on Harman's rig.

While this is true I'm not certain that the differences are that huge below a few kHz for large, open over-ears, as only the pinna is different. In Harman's study on leakage, limited to the spectrum below 1kHz, the older, stiffer GRAS pinna and the custom pinna didn't affect much the HD800's response :

AES E-Library » Improved Measurement of Leakage Effects for Circum-Aural and Supra-Aural Headphones

Headphone leakage effects can have a profound effect on low frequency performance of headphones. A large survey, including over 2000 individual headphone measurements, was undertaken in order to compare leakage effects on test subjects and leakage effects of the same headphones measured on a...

www.aes.org

I would expect the most significant differences to occur above a few kHz.

But IMO the combination of the headphones transfer function and the sample variation issues make all of this a bit of a moot point. As an illustration of that, the sort of deviation that I see with my own samples when equalised to Harman's target per Oratory's profiles in the ear canal gain region when measured in situ, even with different microphone types, is higher than the difference between the various revisions to Harman's over-ears target anyway. Or, at lower frequencies, the variation is at least equivalent to the variation in preferences expressed in various studies or to the differences that were noted in the 5128 vs. GRAS + custom pinna study, particularly when including headphones reliant on seal to deliver the designed bass response.
At lower frequencies this is visible in the same study above. The K550's on-head response on the eight human subjects has little to do with the ear simulators, even when using the custom pinna.
BTW this is why I don't know whether or not I like Harman's target above 800Hz, because I can't know what it sounds like given these variations . However, ANC headphones with a solid feedback mechanism, no volume dependent EQ, and tight tolerances (such as the AirPods Max) will deliver an exact dB value at your eardrum for a particular digital value at lower frequencies, so provided they were properly measured (which I don't think is a significant issue with sweeps in the 50-800hz band when ANC is turned on for the APM), it's one way to know for sure what the bass shelf sounds like.

So as long as Harman's target is used as a reference point, a guideline, or as part of a statistical exercise, I don't see it as much of a problem to apply it to GRAS rigs without the custom pinna as we're not dealing with levels of precision that would make it matter IMO. And if it's used as a way to dumbly calculate a score to evaluate a pair of headphones in particular, well I don't consider it a particularly scientific endeavour anyway regardless of the pinna used given the HPTF issue, so...

Oratory designs his profiles' filters at lower frequencies to enable fairly easy fine-tuning of the response, particularly for open over-ears like the HD800 with a fairly smooth response in this part of the spectrum, but some of his profiles are less flexible at higher frequencies.

 

[preload]

While this is true I'm not certain that the differences are that huge below a few kHz for large, open over-ears, as only the pinna is different. In Harman's study on leakage, limited to the spectrum below 1kHz, the older, stiffer GRAS pinna and the custom pinna didn't affect much the HD800's response :

AES E-Library » Improved Measurement of Leakage Effects for Circum-Aural and Supra-Aural Headphones

Headphone leakage effects can have a profound effect on low frequency performance of headphones. A large survey, including over 2000 individual headphone measurements, was undertaken in order to compare leakage effects on test subjects and leakage effects of the same headphones measured on a...

www.aes.org

I would expect the most significant differences to occur above a few kHz.

Hi there and thanks for the AES paper. I want to make sure I'm completely following what you're saying. In the study you referenced, the authors tested 3 different pinna on the GRAS45 and plotted the variation in FR for 10 different headphones. Yes, for the HD800, there wasn't a whole lot of variation between 50Hz and 500Hz caused by differences in the pinna. However, for the BWP5 and K545, there was quite a bit of pinna-related FR variation between 50 and 400Hz.

I'm also curious about your impression that different measurement pinna don't make a difference until "above a few khz."

I do hear what you're saying about manufacturing variation of the same model (even between L/R) as well as variation caused by small position changes of the headphone on the head making important differences in FR.

T. Welti, "Improved Measurement of Leakage Effects for Circum-Aural and Supra-Aural Headphones," Paper 9275, (2015 May.)

 

[MayaTlab]

Hi there and thanks for the AES paper. I want to make sure I'm completely following what you're saying. In the study you referenced, the authors tested 3 different pinna on the GRAS45 and plotted the variation in FR for 10 different headphones. Yes, for the HD800, there wasn't a whole lot of variation between 50Hz and 500Hz caused by differences in the pinna. However, for the BWP5 and K545, there was quite a bit of pinna-related FR variation between 50 and 400Hz.

I'm also curious about your impression that different measurement pinna don't make a difference until "above a few khz."

I was indeed specifically mentioning the HD800 as it was the headphones originally mentioned by @ChickenChaser . Apologies if I wasn't explicit enough. For most of the other headphones the study found more or less important differences indeed.

 

[Garrincha]

I know this is an older thread, but from the FR curves I have seen, I would list the Moondrop Variations, the AKG N5005 (high nozzle), the ThieAudio Monarch MkII and the Symphonium Helios as the closest contenders, the Variations being the less pricy of them. Dos anybody know a cheaper one?

 

[reasons]

Moons Drop Variations over $100 and Moondrop Chu under $100. Both tuned with Harmon in mind I’d say.

 

[Garrincha]

Moons Drop Variations over $100 and Moondrop Chu under $100. Both tuned with Harmon in mind I’d say.

The Moondrop Chu is clearly a bargain for $20, but is not quite as close to the Harman target as the Variations, especially in sub-bass.

 

[vvs.angelo]

In the recent Audioholics video Dr. Olive pretty much confirmed it was the N5005, he also showed that the JBL Club Pro+ TWS and Samsung Buds Pro are close to the target and are more affordable.


I don't think the N5005 are closer (according to measurements on other sites) but even if the full $999.95 MSRP was donated they have been out of stock for a good part of the year.
View attachment 154535

Sorry but where did you get this measurement?

 

[alumnicesar]

AutoEq/results/RANKING.md at master · jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

Automatic headphone equalization from frequency responses - jaakkopasanen/AutoEq

github.com

second table is IEMs. the 7hz Salnotes Zero 1 has a preference score of 84 at $20