I don't understand the obsession with DR meters

[Fluffy]

However, as I interpret your postings, you prefer a totally crushed down sound. Please don't take this as a critizism of your personal preference - you can prefer whatever you prefer. But also please don't tell me that this crushed sound is an accurate representation of a real drum - it's far from that. There are quite a handful of very good mastered recordings where the drums sound much more real than in the crushed down example in posting #20.

I don't see a point using the term "Crushed down sound", this is something your side of the debate invented. What I like is full and rich recordings that are properly balanced. I see overly dynamic recordings as thin sounding and piercing, each drum hit sticking out of the mix like a stabbing knife to my ear. There is no real point in listening to an accurate representation of real drums – as I said, this would soon make you deaf. The best thing is to tame them to a level where they sound like another instrument in the band. There is compression applied to every instrument, and each one receives a custom treatment according to their character. It so happens that drums are producing excessive sound levels at the attack portion of their sound envelopes, so that needs to be addressed.

In the misleading example in post 20#, the drums are initially way too loud in the mix, and instead of first bringing them down in level and then applying compression, they drastically compress them to prove a point. No one would realistically use compression like that, so it's a false example.

 

[UliBru]

Maybe the thread title needs a change to "I don't understand the obsession with umcompressed/compressed drums"

 

[KSTR]

Actually, why do we even need to mix things? Let's just play everything at their original SPLs. I'm sure an acoustic guitar will sound fine playing alongside a full drumset. And only opera singers would be allowed to sing, because no one else would be able to cut through the SPLs of the rest of the band. We should record rock albums in the audiophile way – two spaced microphones in the room and nothing more. This will give us the most realistic and authentic sound experience. I wonder why no one actually record albums this way.

Oh, right, I remember why. Because it will sound like shit.

This!
We are not going to make true audio documentary here. It's all about creating a nice illusion. "Nice" of course has a lot of wiggle room depending on whom you ask...

 

[Soundstage]

I don't see a point using the term "Crushed down sound", this is something your side of the debate invented. What I like is full and rich recordings that are properly balanced. I see overly dynamic recordings as thin sounding and piercing, each drum hit sticking out of the mix like a stabbing knife to my ear. There is no real point in listening to an accurate representation of real drums – as I said, this would soon make you deaf. The best thing is to tame them to a level where they sound like another instrument in the band. There is compression applied to every instrument, and each one receives a custom treatment according to their character. It so happens that drums are producing excessive sound levels at the attack portion of their sound envelopes, so that needs to be addressed.

In the misleading example in post 20#, the drums are initially way too loud in the mix, and instead of first bringing them down in level and then applying compression, they drastically compress them to prove a point. No one would realistically use compression like that, so it's a false example.

Could you provide us with an exemple of recording where the drums sound like stabbing knife?
Thank you.

 

[Fluffy]

Could you provide us with an exemple of recording where the drums sound like stabbing knife?
Thank you.

This:

Whereas Bell Painting by Marilyn Mazur has a DR value of 26 ! and it looks like

 

[Dimitri]

Fluffy said:


Actually, why do we even need to mix things? Let's just play everything at their original SPLs. I'm sure an acoustic guitar will sound fine playing alongside a full drumset. And only opera singers would be allowed to sing, because no one else would be able to cut through the SPLs of the rest of the band. We should record rock albums in the audiophile way – two spaced microphones in the room and nothing more. This will give us the most realistic and authentic sound experience. I wonder why no one actually record albums this way.

Oh, right, I remember why. Because it will sound like shit.

This!
We are not going to make true audio documentary here. It's all about creating a nice illusion. "Nice" of course has a lot of wiggle room depending on whom you ask...

Since you wondered.....here you go:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...lassics-album-premiere-for-asr-members.11224/

They record just like you say no one does. What else might you be wrong about ?

 

[Dimitri]

Maybe the thread title needs a change to "I don't understand the obsession with umcompressed/compressed drums"

Or even better move the thread to a medical forum to have his auditory perception condition diagnosed !

 

[maty]

Olivia Newton-John - Totally Hot (1978), Vinyl, Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab 1980, US
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post6076250.html

DR15

I just has write:

DR15 <- Decades ago, with worse technology, artist's work was respected, even in commercial music. Now, Loudness War continues to worsen.
Loudness war - Wikipedia

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

y'know...drummers can in fact moderate the way they play their instrument such that they can fit in an acoustic mix. They have brushes, and arms that can vary the intensity of the hits. Some compression is necessary for recording, but there's no need to brick wall...

 

[Fluffy]

y'know...drummers can in fact moderate the way they play their instrument such that they can fit in an acoustic mix. They have brushes, and arms that can vary the intensity of the hits. Some compression is necessary for recording, but there's no need to brick wall...

Pfff brushes. Go tell use brushes to someone with this kind of kit:

 

[House de Kris]

Maybe the thread title needs a change to "I don't understand the obsession with umcompressed/compressed drums"

Or, "I don't understand the obsession with the sound of live music."

Or, "I don't like the sound of live music."

Or, "I don't like music."

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Pfff brushes. Go tell use brushes to someone with this kind of kit:
View attachment 49132

is that the sort of kit that a drummer would usually choose to use in some small group acoustic ensemble? And I'm not really sure why brushes couldn't be used anyway...

 

[LTig]

In the misleading example in post 20#, the drums are initially way too loud in the mix, and instead of first bringing them down in level and then applying compression, they drastically compress them to prove a point. No one would realistically use compression like that, so it's a false example.

I have to apologize - I somehow mistook @KSTR's message in posting #31 (where he preferred the compressed version) as being from you. And while rechecking the thread I realized you're a drummer as well and surely know about drums. Sorry about what I wrote in #60.

 

[Fluffy]

is that the sort of kit that a drummer would usually choose to use in some small group acoustic ensemble? And I'm not really sure why brushes couldn't be used anyway...

I see that you're not a rock fan. That's fine.

I have to apologize - I somehow mistook @KSTR's message in posting #31 (where he preferred the compressed version) as being from you. And while rechecking the thread I realized you're a drummer as well and surely know about drums. Sorry about what I wrote in #60.

Haha, more like a failed drummer
Anyway, I never played without ear protection. And after a couple of years I switched over to an electronic kit, which is much more practical.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

lol. I don't even know what you're talking about. I'm a huge rock fan. Everything from The Ramones to Steely Dan. Has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue at hand. Drums can be fit in to the sonic environment. Drummers can do stuff. They don't have to go full bore. I've stood next to drummers in basements and pounded out power chords. I've also stood next to drummers in basements and played un-amped acoustic guitar. They can soften their attack.

 

[tuga]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but if I am not mistaken the DR rating is programme-related.
If this is so, then a low DR rating doesn't necessarily mean that the recording itself is (overly) compressed.

Thus DR ratings should only be used to compare different issues of the same recording.

Also beware that apparently the TT meter doesn't work with vinyl:

https://productionadvice.co.uk/tt-meter-not-for-vinyl/

 

[Fluffy]

@Sgt. Ear Ache
When the drummer went full out, you obviously needed guitar amplifiers, didn't you? That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, if the drummer play soft on a small kit with brushes and stuff, they can accompany acoustic instruments. But this is not rock, and certainly not metal. For me, if the drummer doesn't go full out, he can go out the window.

@tuga
Try to tell that to the people that thinks that DR score is the be-all and end-all. Like @Blumlein 88 that don't think it's possible that something with DR6 can sound nice.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

yeah, obviously if the drummer goes full out you need amplified instruments to match him...and thus the issue you have with drums being too loud for the mix is mostly mitigated right? The instruments are roughly in line...

 

[tuga]

@Sgt. Ear Ache
When the drummer went full out, you obviously needed guitar amplifiers, didn't you? That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, if the drummer play soft on a small kit with brushes and stuff, they can accompany acoustic instruments. But this is not rock, and certainly not metal. For me, if the drummer doesn't go full out, he can go out the window.

@tuga
Try to tell that to the people that thinks that DR score is the be-all and end-all. Like @Blumlein 88 that don't think it's possible that something with DR6 can sound nice.

I have bought a few remasters (mostly classical). which whilst scoring lower in the DR rating were much better balanced tonal-wise But from what I gather many rock and pop remasters have murderer the music.
I find that Blue Note's RVG edition whilst not different in terms of dynamic range tend to sound bright and forward.

Buying music or hi-fi equipment on ratings alone is a mistake in my opinion.

 

[Fluffy]

yeah, obviously if the drummer goes full out you need amplified instruments to match him...and thus the issue you have with drums being too loud for the mix is mostly mitigated right? The instruments are roughly in line...

The issue as I see it is that drums have very loud and instant attack and quick decay, while every other instrument have mild attack and slow decay. That's why they need to be tamed, even if the rest of the band is amplified. Also, if the mix is very dense with distorted guitars and fat bass and lush keyboards, the tone and resonance of the drums can get lost and what remains is only the initial attack. What gives drums a characteristic sound are those things, not the initial impact. If you want to hear the character of the drums, you need to boost up the sustain part in level. Without compressing the initial peak, you can't really do that. That's drum mixing 101.