• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

I discovered something very interesting about digital vs vinyl.

Status
Not open for further replies.

MakeMineVinyl

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Manufacturer
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
862
Likes
1,056
Location
Santa Fe, NM
#21
It’s a fairly widespread practice in the music production world, in fact.
I actually do that occasionally too bouncing to two track analog tape and then back to digital. In the context of this thread though it seems kind of hairbrained.
 

andreasmaaan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,427
Likes
8,441
#22
I actually do that occasionally too bouncing to two track analog tape and then back to digital. In the context of this thread though it seems kind of hairbrained.
Not at all IMHO.

Music production straddles the creative process. You are using distortion to create an effect, exactly the same way digital EQ or compressors distort the recorded signal to create an (aesthetically desired) effect.

In this case it just happens to involve an analogue component.
 
OP
G
Joined
Nov 18, 2020
Messages
12
Likes
2
Thread Starter #24
guitar sam here and let me explain i coined 2 phrases stereo depth perception & mono depth perception as a way to describe what i was hearing. if you compare vinyl cut directly from the master reel to reel tape the sound stage sounds 3d like and i call that stereo depth perception. new remastered vinyl cut from a digital source does not have that 3d sound stage and i call that mono depth perception which sounds like a vinyl cd. if you take digital audio and re-encode it to flac with compression level (4) it now has that very distinct 3d soundstage and if you A-B test it against the original flac version with mono depth perception you can discern the difference every time. i'm not trying to make digital sound like vinyl however when you convert digital to have that 3d soundstage people recognise it as the sound of vinyl that they love.
here is a comercial audio sample at flac 16/44 with (0) compression http://u.pc.cd/qkHctalK and the same audio re-encoded to flac compression level (4) http://u.pc.cd/XoOrtalK
 

RayDunzl

Major Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
10,845
Likes
10,328
Location
Riverview FL
#25
The FLAC 4 version is louder.

1606213170738.png


Along with whatever else is different.

Flac 0

1606213365622.png


Flac 4

1606213388494.png


1606213445360.png
1606213474805.png



Something looks broken to me.

I don't think it is on my end.

---

Downloads:

1606214825155.png


The FLAC4 file should be smaller than the FLAC0 file if they are the same source file.
 
Last edited:

Sir Sanders Zingmore

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
497
Likes
744
Location
Melbourne, Australia
#26

RayDunzl

Major Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
10,845
Likes
10,328
Location
Riverview FL
#28
flac with compression level 4 has more dynamic range not louder volume
FLAC (any number) should uncompress to the same data.

These files did not.

Something is wrong.
 
Last edited:

Staki

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 17, 2020
Messages
20
Likes
6
Location
Belgium
#29
Precisely. A perfect analogy is gzip, it has options from -1 (fast) to -9 (best), but that is simply a tradeoff between CPU power needed to compress the file and compressed file size. Once the compression done, you can pass around the .gz file and anybody can gunzip without any knowledge about which level was used to compress the file. You always end up with the file identical to the original. Just like gzip, flac -whatever number is lossless.
 

RayDunzl

Major Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
10,845
Likes
10,328
Location
Riverview FL
#30
I see two choices:

1. The source files for the two compressed files are not the same

2. Something is corrupt in the FLAC process at @guitar sam 's end

Maybe there is a third choice, but it obvious to me.

---

Some strange oscillation appears throughout the Level 4 file:

1606216760155.png
 
Last edited:

Staki

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 17, 2020
Messages
20
Likes
6
Location
Belgium
#31
I just did the test with flac -0, -4 and -8. Files are identical, cmp would output something if they were different.

Code:
$ ls -l example.wav
-rw-r--r--  1 smarkovi  staff  74137460 Oct  7  2019 example.wav
$ flac -0 -o example0.flac example.wav

flac 1.3.3
Copyright (C) 2000-2009  Josh Coalson, 2011-2016  Xiph.Org Foundation
flac comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.  This is free software, and you are
welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions.  Type `flac' for details.

example.wav: wrote 56362488 bytes, ratio=0.760
$ flac -4 -o example4.flac example.wav

flac 1.3.3
Copyright (C) 2000-2009  Josh Coalson, 2011-2016  Xiph.Org Foundation
flac comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.  This is free software, and you are
welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions.  Type `flac' for details.

example.wav: wrote 53513572 bytes, ratio=0.722
$ flac -8 -o example8.flac example.wav

flac 1.3.3
Copyright (C) 2000-2009  Josh Coalson, 2011-2016  Xiph.Org Foundation
flac comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.  This is free software, and you are
welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions.  Type `flac' for details.

example.wav: wrote 53335206 bytes, ratio=0.719
$ ls -l example*
-rw-r--r--  1 smarkovi  staff  74137460 Oct  7  2019 example.wav
-rw-r--r--  1 smarkovi  staff  56362488 Oct  7  2019 example0.flac
-rw-r--r--  1 smarkovi  staff  53513572 Oct  7  2019 example4.flac
-rw-r--r--  1 smarkovi  staff  53335206 Oct  7  2019 example8.flac
$ flac -d -o example0.wav example0.flac

flac 1.3.3
Copyright (C) 2000-2009  Josh Coalson, 2011-2016  Xiph.Org Foundation
flac comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.  This is free software, and you are
welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions.  Type `flac' for details.

example0.flac: done
$ flac -d -o example4.wav example4.flac

flac 1.3.3
Copyright (C) 2000-2009  Josh Coalson, 2011-2016  Xiph.Org Foundation
flac comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.  This is free software, and you are
welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions.  Type `flac' for details.

example4.flac: done
$ flac -d -o example8.wav example8.flac

flac 1.3.3
Copyright (C) 2000-2009  Josh Coalson, 2011-2016  Xiph.Org Foundation
flac comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.  This is free software, and you are
welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions.  Type `flac' for details.

example8.flac: done
$ ls -l example*wav
-rw-r--r--  1 smarkovi  staff  74137460 Oct  7  2019 example.wav
-rw-r--r--  1 smarkovi  staff  74137460 Oct  7  2019 example0.wav
-rw-r--r--  1 smarkovi  staff  74137460 Oct  7  2019 example4.wav
-rw-r--r--  1 smarkovi  staff  74137460 Oct  7  2019 example8.wav
$ cmp example.wav example0.wav
$ cmp example4.wav example8.wav
$ cmp example.wav example8.wav
$
 

RayDunzl

Major Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
10,845
Likes
10,328
Location
Riverview FL
#32
here is a comercial audio sample at flac 16/44 with (0) compression http://u.pc.cd/qkHctalK and the same audio re-encoded to flac compression level (4) http://u.pc.cd/XoOrtalK
Are these your files, or just something you ran across that somebody else was promoting?

---

In this foreign thread I see something about you using a commercial encoder or sample rate converter(?):

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/has-anybody-else-noticed-this-about-flac-audio

1606218251652.png


The tool:

https://samplerateconverter.com/

---

Hmmm.

Ok, I'm done.
 
Last edited:

Blumlein 88

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
10,789
Likes
15,364
#33
I think I've discovered something. People who believe FLAC files at different settings differ from each other or from the WAV file are always mistaken.
 

SJ777

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 29, 2020
Messages
742
Likes
1,080
Location
UK
#35
fact vinyl sounds better than digital the reason for this is vinyl has stereo + stereo depth perception and digital has stereo + mono depth perception. to convert digital audio to sound like vinyl you must convert the digital mono depth perception back into stereo depth perception. to do this you must re-encode your digital audio to flac with compression level (4) this will convert digital mono to stereo depth perception and your digital audio will now sound like vinyl. and you can do it for FREE so run your own test and prove it to yourself friends.
As others have said, not the easiest post to decipher!

If you prefer vinyl to digital - that's great. I've no problem at all with that. Please don't feel the need to justify your subjective preferences with BS "evidence". If you like it then just enjoy it. You don't need external verification for your subjective preferences.
 

Blumlein 88

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
10,789
Likes
15,364
#37
Looks to me the files differ due to some aliasing/imaging problem. If they were converted by a faulty rate converter or someone used some odd filter on one file that would explain it. Notice how the spectrogram of the messed up file looks like the upper 4 khz are mirrored around the base frequencies.

1606218793595.png
 

M00ndancer

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 4, 2019
Messages
695
Likes
663
Location
Sweden
#39
fact vinyl sounds better than digital the reason for this is vinyl has stereo + stereo depth perception and digital has stereo + mono depth perception. to convert digital audio to sound like vinyl you must convert the digital mono depth perception back into stereo depth perception. to do this you must re-encode your digital audio to flac with compression level (4) this will convert digital mono to stereo depth perception and your digital audio will now sound like vinyl. and you can do it for FREE so run your own test and prove it to yourself friends.
Troll...
 

Veri

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2018
Messages
6,339
Likes
7,390
#40
At first I thought he might have converted to FLAC(4) with replay gain added to the final file (peak level 0.00dB)... but there might be more fuckery shown above that can be explained for, @guitar sam have you done post-processing just to fuck with the people here? -.-
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Top Bottom