I disassembled my Genelec 8351B

[Doodski]

Beautiful birds

After the summer is over the magpies are very tame and I can walk by them when they are maybe 3 feet away and they are not scared of me. Very cool.

 

[kmidst]

if you do the sums can do do a better setup for your $8,000 if you get the speakers, amplificiation, dac and dsp seperately and end up with a better result, knowing that the GLM software is thrown in for free?

I know you can spend 8k easily on all those components, but you will be getting a device with the internals and construction that makes more sense for the price. Take the Parasound Halo A23+ for example ($1700 retail). Or the Revel F206 ($1925 retail). And the value of software algorithms is debatable. The room correction is not like a full-fledged application with tons of versatility, like Photoshop which costs $21 a month to use.

Just sayin, these Genelac's appear to cost more than they should.

 

[Doodski]

And the value of software algorithms is debatable.

All technology from hardware to software has value. Denigrating software as having little to no value is not reasonable.

 

[Tangband]

I know you can spend 8k easily on all those components, but you will be getting a device with the internals and construction that makes more sense for the price. Take the Parasound Halo A23+ for example ($1700 retail). Or the Revel F206 ($1925 retail). And the value of software algorithms is debatable. The room correction is not like a full-fledged application with tons of versatility, like Photoshop which costs $21 a month to use.

Just sayin, these Genelac's appear to cost more than they should.

But you are now comparing apples with oranges. Revel f206 is a good speaker, but has worse measurement results than 8351/8361, - the f206 is not as good. You have to compare with Revel Ultima Salon 2 to come near in sound quality.

 

[Descartes]

After seeing the inside of this speaker, can someone please educate me on WHY THE F*^@ it costs $4200?

Because Genelec sells them to dealers for $2100!
So basically dealers are the ones making huge profits without doing much of anything, unfortunately!

 

[Doodski]

Because Genelec sells them to dealers for $2100!
So basically dealers are the ones making huge profits without doing much of anything, unfortunately!

I retailed and repaired audio gear for a combined total of 24 years and I never saw that kind of high markup with any speaker brand. Maybe on a interconnect or speaker wires but not speakers.

 

[Descartes]

I retailed and repaired audio gear for a combined total of 24 years and I never saw that kind of high markup with any speaker brand. Maybe on a interconnect or speaker wires but not speakers.

I also worked in the field and had in front of me dealer costs for many brands of speakers.

For example: Totem margins are 50 points, B&W , KEF, Revel, Sonus Faber, Focal, and many other speaker manufacturers are 40 points for free standing speakers.
In walls are 60 points!

 

[kmidst]

All technology from hardware to software has value. Denigrating software as having little to no value is not reasonable.

Oh I agree software does have value, since it took time to engineer. I'm just saying the number that represents its value is open to wide interpretation. I think one should grade them based on functionality. A one-purpose algorithm with no user-interaction probably shouldn't cost more than a software suite with huge versatility and near infinite applications.

 

[Doodski]

I also worked in the field and had in front of me dealer costs for many brands of speakers.

For example: Totem margins are 50 points, B&W , KEF, Revel, Sonus Faber, Focal, and many other speaker manufacturers are 40 points for free standing speakers.
In walls are 60 points!

50 and 60 points is huge markup... I was commissioned for 5 of those 24 years and if speaker markup is that high then I was lied to on the cost and my commissions ...lol

 

[Frank Dernie]

After seeing the inside of this speaker, can someone please educate me on WHY THE F*^@ it costs $4200?

The bulk of Genelec’s costs will be the tooling for the cabinet and very sophisticated drive units made in tiny (for a speaker driver) numbers and the engineering cost of the software they have developed. This all has to be amortised over a fairly small number of speakers.

One of the engineers I know who worked for a well known quality car manufacturer told me only about 5% of the retail price is the car components, the rest is amortising the tooling and engineering design and development costs plus marketing.
He told me his company spent more money marketing the car than they did building it.

 

[kmidst]

But you are now comparing apples with oranges. Revel f206 is a good speaker, but has worse measurement results than 8351/8361, - the f206 is not as good. You have to compare with Revel Ultima Salon 2 to come near in sound quality.

I'd be interested to see the results of a blind A/B of the 8351B to F206, despite the measurements. I'd assume the F206 would sound fuller because of the extra drivers. I could be wrong though, but yeah would love to hear the difference.

 

[kmidst]

I take it you are an outraged production engineer with reasonable knowledge of their tooling costs and sales numbers.
Don’t buy any, if that is the way you feel.


I shan’t be buying any either but that is because of digital gear lifetime not VFM.

No, I don't know the tooling costs, but quick googling of aluminum tooling and casting is showing it's not extremely expensive. Neither are wood-working tools, but it takes more stations and personnel to process woodwork and finish it. Same response to the person posting about amortization above.
One thing that's apparent is that Genelacs have a high degree of prestige and hype. I'm thinking that's a large factor in their price tag.
Seems the audience is people that want a proven quality all-in-one solution, but are not concerned with price.

 

[Descartes]

50 and 60 points is huge markup... I was commissioned for 5 of those 24 years and if speaker markup is that high then I was lied to on the cost and my commissions ...lol

Note that I said 50 points only for one brand Totem that I know off, and 60 points for in wall speakers which are a lot less expensive to make since there are no enclosure!
In addition if you look at JBL every year they have sale on several of their speakers and often at 60% off!

For example: https://www.jbl.com/loudspeakers/ST...0BK_color=Black-USA-Current&cgid=loudspeakers

 

[Sal1950]

Seems the audience is people that want a proven quality all-in-one solution, but are not concerned with price.

I'd say that about covers it.
Same for the market for things like the Kii's and D&D, etc.
Not my cup of tea but for those who want the ease of set-up etc they're perfect.

 

[MAB]

I'd be interested to see the results of a blind A/B of the 8351B to F206, despite the measurements. I'd assume the F206 would sound fuller because of the extra drivers. I could be wrong though, but yeah would love to hear the difference.

What do you mean by "because of the extra drivers"? You may want to go back and review the two models, specifically the Genelec... You have lots of apples to oranges here...

I guess to me, for that much money I would expect the speakers and amplification to look bigger. Everything inside there just has a generic look to it.

Actually, those are really big motors on the woofer drivers, and the racetrack woofers with dimpled surrounds are sophisticated compared to most anything out there. The concentric midrange/tweeters are even more esoteric. But your comparisons are inaccurate. Yeah they have zero-bling-factor, but many welcome the generic look, and is consistent with other Genelec products and pro- and studio-gear in general. I actually built speakers with really fancy plating and anodization on the drivers, and they certainly don't sound as good as the Genelecs. And they measure worse too, despite my fancy stack of amps and DSP. And when I add it up, they cost more, so...

I know you can spend 8k easily on all those components, but you will be getting a device with the internals and construction that makes more sense for the price. Take the Parasound Halo A23+ for example ($1700 retail)

The 8351b are tri-amped 550 Watts per channel, A23+ is 125W/c. So that's a stack of A23+ amps to get you a stereo pair for your comparison, blowing the budget.

The cabinets are next-gen, and Googling around for Aluminum fabrication kinda misses the point that they are one of the lowest cabinet resonances, and they have tamed port resonances better than just about any speaker on the market.

The looks alone are off-putting to some and active speakers may not be what everybody is looking for. But they aren't overpriced.

 

[JayGilb]

After seeing the inside of this speaker, can someone please educate me on WHY THE F*^@ it costs $4200?

Because they can. They are a professionally designed speaker that also measures well and the cost is actually a selling point for many buyers.

Yes, engineering R&D costs money, but it's not like they started with a clean slate. It's just incremental engineering from model to model.

 

[kmidst]

What do you mean by "because of the extra drivers"? You may want to go back and review the two models, specifically the Genelec... You have lots of apples to oranges here...

Actually, those are really big motors on the woofer drivers, and the racetrack woofers with dimpled surrounds are sophisticated compared to most anything out there. The concentric midrange/tweeters are even more esoteric. But your comparisons are inaccurate. Yeah they have zero-bling-factor, but many welcome the generic look, and is consistent with other Genelec products and pro- and studio-gear in general. I actually built speakers with really fancy plating and anodization on the drivers, and they certainly don't sound as good as the Genelecs. And they measure worse too, despite my fancy stack of amps and DSP. And when I add it up, they cost more, so...

The 8351b are tri-amped 550 Watts per channel, A23+ is 125W/c. So that's a stack of A23+ amps to get you a stereo pair for your comparison, blowing the budget.

The cabinets are next-gen, and Googling around for Aluminum fabrication kinda misses the point that they are one of the lowest cabinet resonances, and they have tamed port resonances better than just about any speaker on the market.

The looks alone are off-putting to some and active speakers may not be what everybody is looking for. But they aren't overpriced.

Great, some specific tangible reasons for the speaker's price tag. I appreciate that much more than speculations. Sounds like your knowledge of speaker design is more advanced than mine.

So, what class of amp does the Genelac use for each part of the tri-amp? Also, why 550 W and is that continuous indefinite rating or something else? I also don't understand why so much power is needed unless the sensitivity of the drivers is low. A high-sens driver can hit 100 dB with less than 15 W from what I understand. And about the F206, I meant one more driver, since the Genelac is a three way, but the F206 has four speakers. They're also spread apart further and the cabinet is much bigger.

 

[Killingbeans]

And about the F206, I meant one more driver, since the Genelac is a three way, but the F206 has four speakers.

They both have dual woofers, a mid and a tweeter.

 

[MAB]

Great, some specific tangible reasons for the speaker's price tag. I appreciate that much more than speculations. Sounds like your knowledge of speaker design is more advanced than mine.

So, what class of amp does the Genelac use for each part of the tri-amp? Also, why 550 W and is that continuous indefinite rating or something else? I also don't understand why so much power is needed unless the sensitivity of the drivers is low. A high-sens driver can hit 100 dB with less than 15 W from what I understand. And about the F206, I meant one more driver, since the Genelac is a three way, but the F206 has four speakers. They're also spread apart further and the cabinet is much bigger.

Actually, the Genelec has four drivers, just like the Revel you mentioned so please study the Genelec a bit more. I have no idea about the detailed ratings of the amps, but they are tremendously powerful and tightly integrated, with DSP speaker protection too. There are plenty of discussions about how to characterize amp power, and plenty of discussions about which active monitors have enough amplifier headroom, the 8351 and 8361 models do seem to meet their rated output without limiting.

I'm certainly not knowledgeable like some of the engineers at JBL or Genelec or Neumann. But I study what they do and try to learn, and even imitate. I must say I wouldn't even know where to start with the Genelec Ones, the design is so novel and everything is just-so and the proprietary parts all have a reason for existence, unlike lots of the vaporous stuff high end audio sells. And the result is really great sounding speakers, with a uniquely useful sound-field, and with output power and extension that is going to be hard to get for less money unless you just want to start making sacrifices.

 

[Sal1950]

I'd like to see actives start listing %distortion, @ Xhz, @ Xspl.
Throwing us those BS amp power numbers really tell us nothing.