HT, subwoofer, newest Dolby XYZ nonsense (RANT)

[klettermann]

My very nice, soundproof media room is now done. It's dual purpose, 2ch audio and 7.0.2 surround. It was a lot of effort, took a long time and cost a lot of $$$. I'm very happy with it. 2ch performance is great apart from a room mode 2 that I'll be working on. The 7.0.2 video works great as well. But why 7.0.2, not 7.2.2 or 7.4.4 or whatever?

[rant] In the course of this project I did a deep dive into the HT forums and community. It quickly became clear that to conversation is overwhelmingly dominated by 2 things: (1) Dolby Atmos and related equipment and (2) subwoofers. Then it slowly became apparent to me that Atmos borders on being something between a scam or obsession or the latest thing to spend $$$$ on. OK, it can be nice if your tastes run to superhero stuff, car crashes, train wrecks, supernova explosions, etc etc. However, beyond the SciFi, fantasy, superhero and action genres it's pretty inconsequential - just very little content. And even within those genres it seems like a very occasional thing. So, lots of $$$$ and new gear for an effect that occurs, let's say, <1% of your viewing time.

Which leads to the subwoofer question. I've seen several posts that just boggled the mind. One guy, for example, wanted to what it would take to the pool balls in his room to shake. I'm running full size Magneplanar speakers in a proper setup (good placement, factory rebuilt MGIIIa's driven by Mark Levinson No. 332, 400wpc into 4ohms). Honestly, I've never felt the lack of bass listening to any music. This doubles as the front channels for the HT system. Guess what? I really don't need more bass there either. Am I missing some infrasonic, earth-shaking sensation from eartthquakes or locomotive explosions? Probably. Do I want to send thousands more for subwoofers to get the last 20hz? Absolutely not. y
So I guess I've finally become what I always feared - a grumpy old man. I hereby abandon the quest for ever-more ceiling channels and the last 20hz. There! I said it! Cheers, [/rant]

 

[Vacceo]

If the media you listen to does not employ infrasonics or you do not care about them, there is nothing wrong with staying out of their reproduction equipment. Part of the use I make of my multichannel system is to play videogames, watch series and listen to a lot of Death Metal. The below 80hz content is there, hence why I use them.

Gear is meant to suit your needs and tastes, not the other way round.

 

[EWL5]

More power to you (literally as the long waves normally produced by a powered sub is no longer around to offload the AVR/amp)!

 

[Jim Taylor]

So I guess I've finally become what I always feared - a grumpy old man

When you stop paying attention to what other people want you to do and start paying more attention to what YOU want to do, life becomes a lot more enjoyable. With that in mind ...

Welcome to the club!

Jim

 

[Chrispy]

I do like the capabilities of my subs for a variety of material for my aural (and tactile) enjoyment, if you don't, you don't. I haven't gone Atmos as I don't want to deal with the ceiling installs needed. YMMV.

Curious, you have seven MMGs for a bed layer?

 

[DVDdoug]

One guy, for example, wanted to what it would take to the pool balls in his room to shake.

I'd say that should be impossible with a good pool table on a good foundation. And if it's possible, you'd need to do some on-location investigation to find the resonant frequency of the floor, or whatever.

Most music only goes down to around 40Hz (the lowest note on a standard electric bass guitar). Most "pro" subs used in dance clubs or live "only" go down to around 40Hz. All speakers involve compromises and that's a compromise that allows for a loud-efficient woofer that can fill a large venue with bass you can feel in your body.

You do NEED a subwoofer for the "point one" LFE channel. Without it the LFE is lost. Of course, the other channels can contain "regular bass" and if your other speakers can't reproduce deep bass you can enable "bass management" and re-route all of the bass to the sub. (But it doesn't work the other way around).

P.S.
I have a 5.1 setup and I'm satisfied.

 

[klettermann]

I do like the capabilities of my subs for a variety of material for my aural (and tactile) enjoyment, if you don't, you don't. I haven't gone Atmos as I don't want to deal with the ceiling installs needed. YMMV.

Curious, you have seven MMGs for a bed layer?

No. I need to change my profile or whatever. Anyway, hot-rodded MGIIIa's in front and an assortment of lesser bookshelf speakers for the rest. I tried the MMG's (SMGc's actually) but they needed to be too far in front of rear wall to work properly so I swapped in a pair of ELAC's.

As for other comments, thanks. I've been at the 2ch game for decades but HT much more recently and in a half-baked way until now. And as I've aged I've come the the view that more isn't always more and the nonsense out there is stunning. What really does work great though, is the soundproof room. It's the full double sheetrock/green glue/isolation clips etc etc. You can't hear it dining room directly overhead at anything less than deafening volume. A major score for domestic harmony! Highly recommended. Anyway, now my life is simplified a little. Cheers,

 

[Doctors11]

No. I need to change my profile or whatever. Anyway, hot-rodded MGIIIa's in front and an assortment of lesser bookshelf speakers for the rest. I tried the MMG's (SMGc's actually) but they needed to be too far in front of rear wall to work properly so I swapped in a pair of ELAC's.

As for other comments, thanks. I've been at the 2ch game for decades but HT much more recently and in a half-baked way until now. And as I've aged I've come the the view that more isn't always more and the nonsense out there is stunning. What really does work great though, is the soundproof room. It's the full double sheetrock/green glue/isolation clips etc etc. You can't hear it dining room directly overhead at anything less than deafening volume. A major score for domestic harmony! Highly recommended. Anyway, now my life is simplified a little. Cheers,

Sounds like you found about a perfect balance... good for you!
One thing you might consider looking into would be adding bass shakers under your seat. Good quality ones can either shake your spine or be barely noticable. You decide depending on the crossover and level you set. We added them a few years ago and love them. Anyway, something to consider.
Glad you're enjoying your new room.

 

[klettermann]

OMG! Brilliant! Never occurred to me but it's not even so expensive. Seems like it could be huge fun, especially for those not expecting it. Thanks!

 

[ATB]

You do NEED a subwoofer for the "point one" LFE channel. Without it the LFE is lost. Of course, the other channels can contain "regular bass" and if your other speakers can't reproduce deep bass you can enable "bass management" and re-route all of the bass to the sub. (But it doesn't work the other way around).

P.S.
I have a 5.1 setup and I'm satisfied.

Depends on the AVR. Until recently I was running my L and R fronts each with a dedicated sub with nothing on the LFE channel and my AVR would send the LFE channel to them when they were set to large and the sub channels were set to disabled.

To OP, when I had our basement “theatre” room roughed in, I ran wires for 4 celling atmos channels. I finally got around to adding to them recently. Is it night and day? Could I not live without them? No. But I do appreciate what they add for movies that support them well. The 18” ported sub I added to the LFE channel soon afterwards was a more noticeable improvement .

 

[klettermann]

Depends on the AVR. Until recently I was running my L and R fronts each with a dedicated sub with nothing on the LFE channel and my AVR would send the LFE channel to them when they were set to large and the sub channels were set to disabled.

To OP, when I had our basement “theatre” room roughed in, I ran wires for 4 celling atmos channels. I finally got around to adding to them recently. Is it night and day? Could I not live without them? No. But I do appreciate what they add for movies that support them well. The 18” ported sub I added to the LFE channel soon afterwards was a more noticeable improvement .

Actually I did the same. Trouble is, there's an odd and irremediable soffit that obscures where the front ceiling speakers ought to go. So I was forced into 7.x.2. I could move the couch to compensate but then I'd be out of whack for 2ch which is really a higher priority for me.

 

[Chrispy]

No. I need to change my profile or whatever. Anyway, hot-rodded MGIIIa's in front and an assortment of lesser bookshelf speakers for the rest. I tried the MMG's (SMGc's actually) but they needed to be too far in front of rear wall to work properly so I swapped in a pair of ELAC's.

As for other comments, thanks. I've been at the 2ch game for decades but HT much more recently and in a half-baked way until now. And as I've aged I've come the the view that more isn't always more and the nonsense out there is stunning. What really does work great though, is the soundproof room. It's the full double sheetrock/green glue/isolation clips etc etc. You can't hear it dining room directly overhead at anything less than deafening volume. A major score for domestic harmony! Highly recommended. Anyway, now my life is simplified a little. Cheers,

I would rather deal with my ceilings than make a soundproof room....I like audio/gear but not that much. I just doubt I'd be satisfied with MMG or similar speakers bass output in any case, even if a full bed layer of them.

 

[klettermann]

I would rather deal with my ceilings than make a soundproof room....I like audio/gear but not that much. I just doubt I'd be satisfied with MMG or similar speakers bass output in any case, even if a full bed layer of them.

I'm confused. I already have the soundproof room. And I don't have MMG's, they are MGIIIa's in front, a very, very different thing. As for ceilings, if you're talking about acoustical room treatments, that will be the next phase.

 

[Chrispy]

I'm confused. I already have the soundproof room. And I don't have MMG's, they are MGIIIa's in front, a very, very different thing. As for ceilings, if you're talking about acoustical room treatments, that will be the next phase.

Confused about what? The particular model of that type of speaker isn't particularly important, sorry for being imprecise. Not sure what you mean by "as for ceilings....."

 

[jhaider]

Then it slowly became apparent to me that Atmos borders on being something between a scam or obsession or the latest thing to spend $$$$ on. OK, it can be nice if your tastes run to superhero stuff, car crashes, train wrecks, supernova explosions, etc etc. However, beyond the SciFi, fantasy, superhero and action genres it's pretty inconsequential - just very little content.

That's not actually true. If you look at Apple Music's library you'll see tons of recordings in Atmos.

So it's for far more than mindless Hollywood fare.

And even within those genres it seems like a very occasional thing. So, lots of $$$$ and new gear for an effect that occurs, let's say, <1% of your viewing time.

Which leads to the subwoofer question. I've seen several posts that just boggled the mind. One guy, for example, wanted to what it would take to the pool balls in his room to shake. I'm running full size Magneplanar speakers in a proper setup (good placement, factory rebuilt MGIIIa's driven by Mark Levinson No. 332, 400wpc into 4ohms). Honestly, I've never felt the lack of bass listening to any music. This doubles as the front channels for the HT system. Guess what? I really don't need more bass there either. Am I missing some infrasonic, earth-shaking sensation from eartthquakes or locomotive explosions? Probably. Do I want to send thousands more for subwoofers to get the last 20hz? Absolutely not. y
So I guess I've finally become what I always feared - a grumpy old man. I hereby abandon the quest for ever-more ceiling channels and the last 20hz. There! I said it! Cheers, [/rant]

Your point about the idiocy of internet subwoofer bench racing is well taken. However, the most important (IMO) functions of subwoofers in a grown-up's system are really
1) Smooth out the bass response all around the room, and
2) Increase overall dynamic headroom by reducing the load on the main speakers.

However, if you don't feel the need (especially if you only care about one seat) then cool.

 

[Fidji]

Then it slowly became apparent to me that Atmos borders on being something between a scam or obsession or the latest thing to spend $$$$ on. OK, it can be nice if your tastes run to superhero stuff, car crashes, train wrecks, supernova explosions, etc etc. However, beyond the SciFi, fantasy, superhero and action genres it's pretty inconsequential - just very little content. And even within those genres it seems like a very occasional thing. So, lots of $$$$ and new gear for an effect that occurs, let's say, <1% of your viewing time.

That is a bit of misconception. There is lot of great Atmos music available (not saying you can not enjoy most of the same in DTS) and it usually offers significant improvement of basic sound quality over e.g. 2Ch releases, it is mostly noticeable on dynamic range. Also lot of greatest movies from the past get Atmos/4k makeovers (one of my recent addition being Schindlers list, which for sure does not fall into any of the above mentioned categories, where Atmos enhances emotional impact of this great movie). You need to also take into account, that it is relatively new format, so creators are still learning how to best utilize its full potential.

But is up to you to decide, if it is worth the investment into speakers/amps and all the associated hassle, you for sure can enjoy 90% of benefits with good 7.1 setup and listen to downmixed Atmos content. x.x.2 will get you 80% there on Atmos content [as lot of the stuff is mixed in 7.1.2 fixed], x.x.4 is the sweet spot, x.x.6 and more is vanity with steeply diminishing returns.

Regarding subwoofers. Here I will be more straightforward - MCH or HT without proper bass reproduction can never be considered “high performance” or “really good”. Period. If your system is not able to truly convey artist intent, the we talk about different levels of compromise, which is also fine. Lot,of,people mistakingly associate bass extension with explosions and sfx effects. I do listen to lot of classical music and trust me, Bach magnificent works, recorded in gothic churches sound differently on the system, that is able to go below 20Hz, although there are no real notes below 60Hz. You can hear size of the venue, depth, ambiance. Sa,e for live recordongs.

Issue here - it is really expensive to have bass done correctly, as bass region is hardest to solve acoustically.

EDIT. One example 17th century sacral music in Atmos. Lot going on there.

 

[Doctors11]

OMG! Brilliant! Never occurred to me but it's not even so expensive. Seems like it could be huge fun, especially for those not expecting it. Thanks!

You're welcome. This is what we ended up getting and they end up making us smile every time. Action movies are obvious (the new Kong/Godzilla...holy crap!), but even in more subtle movies a door slam or crack of thunder etc can really elevate your experience. When I play the 5.1 SACD of Dark Side of the Moon, the heartbeat literally vibrates your innards! Fun stuff.

Dayton Audio SPA250 Amp With 4 Aura Pro Bass Shakers Bundle

Dayton Audio SPA250 Amp With 4 Aura Pro Bass Shakers BundleThis package has all the power you need to shake every seat in the house. Working on the principal that low bass is felt as much as heard; bass shakers can easily give the impression of ridiculous amounts of low end without reaching...

www.parts-express.com

 

[Chrispy]

I'm confused. I already have the soundproof room. And I don't have MMG's, they are MGIIIa's in front, a very, very different thing. As for ceilings, if you're talking about acoustical room treatments, that will be the next phase.

Sorry, just meant Magneplanar speakers. No, was talking Atmos type speakers being a next step (for me and how I'd rank importance/effort/expense) before a soundproofed room.