How to improve my headphone setup step by step?

[klisse]

What should be my next steps to improve soundquality with my headphone set?
I'm seeking mainly 3D representation of good recordings as far as it gets with headphones.
Wide soundstage, depth, layering, separation of sources, room (virtual or real)

This is my setup today:
Intel NUC8iBEH2 with Roon Optimized Core Kit (ROCK)
1 GBit/s copper ethernet (2 switches)
Battery powered netbook Intel Celeron 1.3 GHz CPU with Volumio OS as Roon bridge
iFi stock USB cable
iFi Pro iDSD DAC/Headphone amp with iFi power supply, solid state, bit perfect, no upsampling
Quad ERA-1 headphones with Quad stock cable on single ended 6.35 mm TRS jack
Roon DSP:
jaakkopasanen convolution filters 44.1/48 for the Quads
Sample Rate Conversion up to DSD256 (evaluating)

Streaming TIDAL. Waiting for a SSD for local audio file storage.

I'm not really missing anything specific as it is now.
But I'm curious to find out if there is any room for improvement.

I will appreciate any suggestion.
Thank You

klisse

 

[maverickronin]

I'm seeking mainly 3D representation of good recordings as far as it gets with headphones.
Wide soundstage, depth, layering, separation of sources, room (virtual or real)

For a more realistic soundstage with headphones I would recommend experimenting with crossfeed and HRTF DSPs. I don't use Roon though so I'm not sure of the best way to integrate that.

My favorite is TB Isone, but I don't know if Roon has got around to adding support for VST plugins yet.

 

[Bob-23]

I, personally, prefer Sean Olive's EQ-settings, Jaakkopassanen's work is incredible, though. Try it out.

I agree with maverickroni, Crossfeed ist abolute essential (to me) - I could never listen without. I prefer Jan Meier's Crossfeed-Medium, and I prefer the the bass-enhanced version, 'cause the application of crossfeed reduces bass a bit. You find digital versions of Meier's crossfeed, although not necessarily the bass-enhanced one. In case, you're on DIY, it's very easy to build, just 9 components, I prefer it over the digital one (but haven't done a proper AB-Test yet).

Apart from the headphones, the rest of your setup is rather secondary. Soundstage, depth, layering etc. depend not only on the headphones (open/closed etc., there are, for instance, huge differences between, say, a HD600 and a K702) but to a large degree on the quality of the recording, there're lots of miserable recordings, if you like Jazz try out ECM.

Enjoy!

http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/crossproject2.htm

 

[Bob-23]

A clarification with regard to your setting might be necessary: With 'rather secondary' I meant: As long as you don't hear any distortion, any noise - and apparently you are quite content with your setup - you can be quite confident that no further investment will improve your sound, save the money and get good music instead, or another headphone. You can also be quite shure that there a r e other thinkable setups that measure better, but unless you're 'Golden Eared' , you won't hear a difference in a rigorous AB-Test. Such a test will destroy all your illusions.

Btw, I forgot, what improved my listening experience very much is - apart from the fixed eqing by computer - having a separate (shelving) Baxandall-EQ right by the hand while listening in the night so that I can easily and quickly add some bass or reduce the highs if a particular recording makes that necessary - and that is often the case.

 

[Fluffy]

Intel NUC8iBEH2 with Roon Optimized Core Kit (ROCK)
1 GBit/s copper ethernet (2 switches)
Battery powered netbook Intel Celeron 1.3 GHz CPU with Volumio OS as Roon bridge
iFi stock USB cable
iFi Pro iDSD DAC/Headphone amp with iFi power supply, solid state, bit perfect, no upsampling
Quad stock cable on single ended 6.35 mm TRS jack
Roon DSP:
jaakkopasanen convolution filters 44.1/48 for the Quads
Sample Rate Conversion up to DSD256 (evaluating)

Streaming TIDAL. Waiting for a SSD for local audio file storage.

All of those things will contribute between 0% and 1% of the total sound quality. The rest of the 99% is the headphones themselves. The most direct way to improve your sound is to improve your headphones.

 

[LightninBoy]

What should be my next steps to improve soundquality with my headphone set?
I'm seeking mainly 3D representation of good recordings as far as it gets with headphones.
Wide soundstage, depth, layering, separation of sources, room (virtual or real)

But I'm curious to find out if there is any room for improvement.

I will appreciate any suggestion.
Thank You

My suggestion is to listen with speakers for large improvements to the aspects in bold above. If space is a concern, many folks are incorporating near field monitors into their desktop setups.

 

[Eetu]

I also recommend experimenting with crossfeed, but I'm with the previous poster that for 3D "holographic" qualities go for a speaker setup if you don't have (a good) one yet.

A huge part of it is of course the material. Here's a couple of examples that experiment with soundstage and 3D/binaural effects:
Yosi Horikawa - Bubbles
Max Cooper - Resynthesis

All of those things will contribute between 0% and 1% of the total sound quality. The rest of the 99% is the headphones themselves. The most direct way to improve your sound is to improve your headphones.

I agree with your last line. But youtube 240p straight from laptop is 99-99.9% the same quality as tidal with separate dac/hp amp + eq? Sure you're not exaggerating just a tiny bit with those percentage points... The source does matter.

 

[Fluffy]

I agree with your last line. But youtube 240p straight from laptop is 99-99.9% the same quality as tidal with separate dac/hp amp + eq? Sure you're not exaggerating just a tiny bit with those percentage points... The source does matter.

Let's see… computer model, CPU, Ethernet speed, playback application, USB cable, headphone cable, sample rate conversion, SSD – we can agree that all those things don't measurably contribute to sound quality, right? Unless they're obviously broken, of course.

Choice of DAC and headphone amp will contribute measurably, but probably not perceptually. 1% of THD+N equals a SINAD of 40, and almost all dacs and amps exhibit performance that exceeds 90 db of SINAD, or about 0.003% THD+N. Other properties like impedance, FR, power ratings – all of these will also contribute to SQ, even audibly, but relative to the difference the headphones themselves make, it's really negligible. As long as the amp has the minimum specs to run the headphones, any improvement will be almost inconsequential. I agree that upgrading from the built in jack of a laptop to a dedicated amp will probably be a large improvement, but he already has an overkill set up to begin with.

Bitrate of the source (which would be the difference between TIDAL and youtube playback) could be audible, depending on the codec. But the differences between AAC at 256 kb/s and FLAC are very hard to detect. Deltawave puts the difference at only 0.32% away from bit perfect match.

DSP could be the largest audible difference, depending on what eq and other effects he is running. A complex custom convolution filter will change the sound pretty dramatically.

But yeah, all of those, even the audible ones, pale in comparison to the effect the headphones themselves have. Especially regarding the things OP wanted – " Wide soundstage, depth, layering, separation of sources, room". no amount of hardware and DSP can give great layering and soundstage to headphones that lack it. I interpret most of these subjective descriptions as being most dependent on the acoustic and mechanical design of the headphones. And if they are good, you don't really need fancy DSP to make them sound well.

 

[klisse]

For a more realistic soundstage with headphones I would recommend experimenting with crossfeed and HRTF DSPs. I don't use Roon though so I'm not sure of the best way to integrate that.

As I understand this thread, Roon still doesn't support VST plugins. But there are examples for workarounds.
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/dirac-update-roon-and-vst-au-plugins/60352/51

My favorite is TB Isone, but I don't know if Roon has got around to adding support for VST plugins yet.

Never heard of ToneBoosters and Isone. Thanks for Your hint in that new direction. Unfortunately their software is only for Windows and Mac computers. So not for me.

Thank You very much for taking the time to reply.

 

[klisse]

I, personally, prefer Sean Olive's EQ-settings, Jaakkopassanen's work is incredible, though. Try it out.

Didn't know of Sean's EQ-settings. Wow! Looks appealing. Will certainly try out.

I agree with maverickroni, Crossfeed ist abolute essential (to me) - I could never listen without. I prefer Jan Meier's Crossfeed-Medium, and I prefer the the bass-enhanced version, 'cause the application of crossfeed reduces bass a bit. You find digital versions of Meier's crossfeed, although not necessarily the bass-enhanced one. In case, you're on DIY, it's very easy to build, just 9 components, I prefer it over the digital one (but haven't done a proper AB-Test yet).

Hmm. Crossfeed. I tried it initially while my trial period with Roon. Did not convince me from start. Expected to achieve a perception of a soundstage in front of me, more like with speakers. But that was not the case. At least not with Roon DSP and my headphones. So I switched it off and kept it that way since.

Apart from the headphones, the rest of your setup is rather secondary.

Well, seems like all replies point in that direction. To my surprise, I must say.

Soundstage, depth, layering etc. depend not only on the headphones (open/closed etc., there are, for instance, huge differences between, say, a HD600 and a K702)

Apart from the Quads I only own my old AKG 340s and for traveling Sennheiser Momentum 3 with Active Noise Cancelling.

but to a large degree on the quality of the recording, there're lots of miserable recordings, if you like Jazz try out ECM.

Full ack! I know ECM Records since decades, although during the last years I got more familiar with the ACT catalog.

 

[klisse]

A clarification with regard to your setting might be necessary: With 'rather secondary' I meant: As long as you don't hear any distortion, any noise - and apparently you are quite content with your setup - you can be quite confident that no further investment will improve your sound, save the money and get good music instead, or another headphone. You can also be quite shure that there a r e other thinkable setups that measure better, but unless you're 'Golden Eared' , you won't hear a difference in a rigorous AB-Test. Such a test will destroy all your illusions.

I will try to comment on that aspect later in sort of a conclusion.

Btw, I forgot, what improved my listening experience very much is - apart from the fixed eqing by computer - having a separate (shelving) Baxandall-EQ right by the hand while listening in the night so that I can easily and quickly add some bass or reduce the highs if a particular recording makes that necessary - and that is often the case.

Never heard of 'Baxandall'. Will investigate what You meant. Thanks.

 

[klisse]

All of those things will contribute between 0% and 1% of the total sound quality. The rest of the 99% is the headphones themselves. The most direct way to improve your sound is to improve your headphones.

Since I had the Quads, I evaluated...
- Audeze ( maybe 3 different models). All of them really disappointed me.
- Hifiman (dont remember the model). Nothing spectacular either.
- Sennheiser HD 820. Very good headphones, sure. Different compared to my Quads. But better? Did not really convince me.

So where to go from here?
I never had a chance to hear HEDDphone, Abyss, Meze, Focal.
Some of them perhaps out of my budget. But I am curious to hear, if there would be any upgrade to the quality of my Quads.

But now - for obvious reasons - with cancelled audio shows and closed dealer shops, I don't see any chance to evaluate headphones.

Oh, exactly You wrote

improve your headphones.

Maybe I missunterstood You. I apologize, I'm not a native speaker.
How could I possibly improve MY headphones? Ad hoc only swapping cables and pads comes to my mind.
Are that options You would suggest?

 

[klisse]

My suggestion is to listen with speakers for large improvements to the aspects in bold above. If space is a concern, many folks are incorporating near field monitors into their desktop setups.

You are certainly right, LightninBoy. Regarding my preferred aspects as mentioned in my original post, headphone listening will only be a substitute for a good speaker setup. Unfortunately I don't have a dedicated listening room. As it is often the case, in a living room there a compromises to be made. Still, I surely will address improving on my speaker setup. But later. In the meantime I intended to get everything right upstream until amplification AND have fun doing so.

 

[klisse]

I also recommend experimenting with crossfeed, but I'm with the previous poster that for 3D "holographic" qualities go for a speaker setup if you don't have (a good) one yet.

OK. Crossfeed. Understood. Accepted. I will try that again and more thoroughly than before.

A huge part of it is of course the material. Here's a couple of examples that experiment with soundstage and 3D/binaural effects:

Excellent, Eetu.
Yosi Horikawa - Bubbles
I know that since it came out. It's an essential part of my demo playlist. Much fun to listen to.

Max Cooper - Resynthesis
Did not know that one. Thanks for Your suggestion.

May I throw in another one where I get a fairly realistic imagination of the recording room.
Mighty Sam McClain - When the Hurt is over
Available on Tidal

 

[klisse]

Let's see… computer model, CPU, Ethernet speed, playback application, USB cable, headphone cable, sample rate conversion, SSD – we can agree that all those things don't measurably contribute to sound quality, right? Unless they're obviously broken, of course.
[...]

Thank You very much, Fluffy. Your summary will lead me to my conclusion from all the replies up to now.
Considering my headphone setup only, ignoring the presumably better alternative of a speaker setup.

1. there are only two places to look for improvements of soundquality: headphones and DSP
This corresponds with my experience so far. Obviously there are huge differences when I compare my Quads with my other headphones. The most explicit improvement I got in my setup was without any doubt activating Jaakko's filters in Roon. Not initially though. Not overwhelming right from the beginning. But after some days of listening there is no way back. Every time I deactivate that convolution filter in Roon I have the impression my headphones are getting rude and tend to ask them 'Why are you yelling at me?'
My chores will be: Evaluating more headphones. Trying more options regarding DSP.

2. I understand more or less You all agree on a neglectable influence on soundquality of anything else.
As already mentioned, I did not expect that. I was ready to get educated swapping cables, power supplies, network equipment, etc., replacing my cheap netbook with a dedicated audio streamer, my DAC/Headphoneamp combo with a dedicated DAC and a decent headphone amp.

Essentially You say my perception, my sound experience would not change at all if I replaced e.g. my netbook with a expensive streaming device.
I know, there are models available for thousands of $. Customers of let's say Aurender, Lumin, dCS, Auralic, Naim are wasting their money? A whole lot of money that is. Wow! That is bold! And a huge advantage if I can save that money.

3. Without relation to your replies..
in the meantime I discovered iFi recommended a second 3rd party iOS App for controlling their Pro iDSD 'mconnect'. Until then MUZO Player was the only app. I found this one unusable. So now I'm able to stream my TIDAL library with my DAC itself connected to ethernet, thus omitting netbook and USB. I like to get rid of one box and cable. BUT until now iFi Pro iDSD is not Roon ready, which means I have to give up on Roon DSP. No option.

Thank You all so much for taking the time to reply and for all Your very much appreciated comments and suggestions.

Stay safe and healthy.

Enjoy the music You like already and never stop exploring the unknown artists, genres, recordings. There is so much to discover yet.

klisse

 

[Eetu]

I understand more or less You all agree on a neglectable influence on soundquality of anything else.
As already mentioned, I did not expect that. I was ready to get educated swapping cables, power supplies, network equipment, etc., replacing my cheap netbook with a dedicated audio streamer, my DAC/Headphoneamp combo with a dedicated DAC and a decent headphone amp.

Yes, I believe this is the consensus on this forum (contrary to some other 'audiophile' circles) after seeing measurements/measuring electronics: electronics (streamers, dacs & amps) are mostly a 'solved problem' and the biggest way to improve sound quality is to upgrade the transducer (headphones & speakers). They are always the weakest link.

 

[Fluffy]

Since I had the Quads, I evaluated...
- Audeze ( maybe 3 different models). All of them really disappointed me.
- Hifiman (dont remember the model). Nothing spectacular either.
- Sennheiser HD 820. Very good headphones, sure. Different compared to my Quads. But better? Did not really convince me.

So where to go from here?
I never had a chance to hear HEDDphone, Abyss, Meze, Focal.
Some of them perhaps out of my budget. But I am curious to hear, if there would be any upgrade to the quality of my Quads.

But now - for obvious reasons - with cancelled audio shows and closed dealer shops, I don't see any chance to evaluate headphones.

Oh, exactly You wrote
Maybe I missunterstood You. I apologize, I'm not a native speaker.
How could I possibly improve MY headphones? Ad hoc only swapping cables and pads comes to my mind.
Are that options You would suggest?

1. there are only two places to look for improvements of soundquality: headphones and DSP
This corresponds with my experience so far. Obviously there are huge differences when I compare my Quads with my other headphones. The most explicit improvement I got in my setup was without any doubt activating Jaakko's filters in Roon. Not initially though. Not overwhelming right from the beginning. But after some days of listening there is no way back. Every time I deactivate that convolution filter in Roon I have the impression my headphones are getting rude and tend to ask them 'Why are you yelling at me?'
My chores will be: Evaluating more headphones. Trying more options regarding DSP.

Actually what I meant is to upgrade to better headphones. Meze and Focal are two of my favorite brands, and I think you should try them out as an option for upgrading. It's perfectly ok that you didn't like what you heard from Audeze, Hifiman and Sennheiser, and it would be also ok if you won't like what Focal and Meze has to offer. Sound is a very individual thing, especially in headphones, and sometimes require evaluating a lot of headphones until you find the one that is right for you. I agree that right now is unfortunately the worst time to go listening to headphones at stores and shows. I hope that the whole crisis will be resolved soon, and businesses will re-open and gatherings will be possible again.

Otherwise, as you concluded rightfully, DSP is probably the best way to experiment with your current headphones. I strongly suggest exploring the DSP option to its fullest to understand what is and isn't possible with your headphones. I don't know what software you are currently using, but I use EQ APO, a freeware with infinite customizability potential.

2. I understand more or less You all agree on a neglectable influence on soundquality of anything else.
As already mentioned, I did not expect that. I was ready to get educated swapping cables, power supplies, network equipment, etc., replacing my cheap netbook with a dedicated audio streamer, my DAC/Headphoneamp combo with a dedicated DAC and a decent headphone amp.

Essentially You say my perception, my sound experience would not change at all if I replaced e.g. my netbook with a expensive streaming device.
I know, there are models available for thousands of $. Customers of let's say Aurender, Lumin, dCS, Auralic, Naim are wasting their money? A whole lot of money that is. Wow! That is bold! And a huge advantage if I can save that money.

To understand how this industry really works, you can dive into this excellent analysis by ahofer (that I also linked to in my signature): https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...or-audio-thrive-in-a-competitive-market.9468/

The short answer is that more money gives customers a whole set of benefits that aren't strictly improvements in sound quality. It's all due to psychological effects and biases.

 

[Bob-23]

Never heard of 'Baxandall'. Will investigate what You meant. Thanks.

I built mine according to Rod Elliotts 'ESP' - definitely the world's best site for diy audio - it's just 2 knobs, and its corrections are smooth.

Here's a description of what it is:
https://sound-au.com/index.html

> Articles>General Information>
'Equalizers, The Various Types And How They Work'
Chapter 4

Enjoy!

 

[Bob-23]

Expected to achieve a perception of a soundstage in front of me, more like with speakers.

To me, the perception of soundstage in-front-of-head vs. in-head seems to have a strong 'psychoacoustic' component. Usually, when listening to a well- mixed recording, I don't think of it at all. It only appears as 'a problem', when concentrating on it, but even then, I sometimes find I can switch between 'in-' or 'in-front-of-head', voluntarily... But, of course, that's a subjective experience... Crossfeed I also use because of what one may call 'spatial distortion' (I think Jan Meier used the term) which is very fatigueing to me, 'spatial distortion' of recordings that are usually mixed on boxes for listening on boxes i.e. you hear the sound of each box on b o t h of your ears which is ob'viously' not the case in headphones. Crossfeed tries to correct for that, blending a bit of the right channel into the left one, and vice versa, very slightly time-delayed for the farther ear. (But not everybody needs Crossfeed, not everybody likes Crossfeed. We are different. And our brains are very flexible.) - lf we had recordings, mixed on headphones, that'd be another story.

 

[klisse]

I built mine according to Rod Elliotts 'ESP' - definitely the world's best site for diy audio

Huge site, takes years to read. Very interesting. Thanks.

> Articles>General Information>
'Equalizers, The Various Types And How They Work'
Chapter 4

1952?