phono preamp help - and a general "save me from myself" request

[spac3manG]

hello - thanks in advance

my setup

speakers - 2 Sonos Fives used as a stereo pair

Streamer / DAC - Wiim Pro Plus connected to 3.5m line in on the stereo pair fives (allows me to use roon and wiim room correction and equaliser)

Roon server on a Intel NUC with local flac files and Qoboz for streaming ( connected with optical into the wiiim play plus)

Turntable - Project debut pro s

i connect the turntable via phono pre into the Wiim pro plus - this allows me to use the room correction and equaliser from the Wiim before it goes to line in on the Fives

ok - question time i have three phono pre amp options

1. project - phono mm
2. cambridge audio alva duo
3. replace the Wiim pro plus with the Wiim ultra and use the built in phono pre

Q 1 - on my setup will the phono pre component make a significant sound difference? for convienince would the ultra be "good enough" for price would the project be "good enough" or is this an important enough component for the cambridge audio duo?

Q 2 - for logistical reasons there is a preference for the turntable and the phono pre to be about 5m apart. does running a 5m rca cable from turntable to phono pre matter? in this scenario i am not using the turntable to phono to ground cable/wire - does this matter?

thank you thank you thank you for your opinions

yes, i'm trying to use my (definitely not golden more like copper) ears and blind test but honestly, I would just love the opinion and view of someone who understands the science to give me a steer on best practice in the context of my scenario.



G

optional bonus Q

or should i simplify - forget roon and Wiim room corection and equaliser and just plug the phono pre into the Fives and use Qobuz on the sonos app - ie ignoring "quality of life" improvements is this simplified setup going to match the more complex setup for audio "quality"

yeah, i'm deep in a rabbit hole

 

[MarkS]

Q 1 - on my setup will the phono pre component make a significant sound difference?

No.

for convienince would the ultra be "good enough"

Yes.

for price would the project be "good enough"

Yes.

or is this an important enough component for the cambridge audio duo?

No. Very unlikely that there is any audible difference among the three, certainly nothing significant (eg, there may be small differences in their RIAA EQ curves).

Q 2 - for logistical reasons there is a preference for the turntable and the phono pre to be about 5m apart. does running a 5m rca cable from turntable to phono pre matter?

Bad idea. Hum is likely. Putting the phono preamp close to the turntable is best practice.

in this scenario i am not using the turntable to phono to ground cable/wire - does this matter?

Yes. Hum is even more likely. But you could try it and see.

or should i simplify - forget roon and Wiim room corection and equaliser and just plug the phono pre into the Fives and use Qobuz on the sonos app

No. After decent speakers, room EQ is by far the most important contributor to good sound.

- ie ignoring "quality of life" improvements is this simplified setup going to match the more complex setup for audio "quality"

No, not close.

And welcome to ASR!

 

[JeremyFife]

What @MarkS said ...

With added emphasis on having as short a distance as possible between turntable and phono stage, and grounding your TT properly. Less than 1m if possible.

5m is quite a long way for your cabling (WiiM to speakers), try it and see - if you don't hear noise then it's all good.
One alternative is to get another WiiM Pro Plus, one connected to the TT and one connected to the Speakers - and let WiiM do it's multi-room thing. Complete flexibility with positioning that way. You can even try it out cheaply with a WiiM Mini at the speaker end (DAC isn't as good as the Pro Plus, but its still ok)

 

[DVDdoug]

Q 2 - for logistical reasons there is a preference for the turntable and the phono pre to be about 5m apart. does running a 5m rca cable from turntable to phono pre matter?

It will affect the high frequencies and possibly make it more sensitive to hum pickup.

Coax cable has a certain capacitance per-foot and phono cartridges have an optimum-recommended capacitance load (along with a recommended resistance load of 47k Ohms). That may be included in the specs, depending on the manufacturer. The total capacitance is the sum from the wiring in the turntable, the cables, and the preamp.

The capacitance can be too high or too low and it affects frequency response.

 

[Wolf11Man]

When I still used a record player, one of the most audible improvement was to install a good RIAA preamp PCB inside of it and using the amps line in.
That way the pickup-amp connection was reduced to a few inches. The power supply was in a separate box.

Today quite some new turntables have integrated preamps, but I doubt these 25$ add on's are high quality. I don't know what good RIAA PCB's are around today.

5 meters of non amplified pickup signal sounds like a very bad idea, even with MM, not to speak of MC.

 

[Curvature]

If you are feeling like you want to overspend for limited benefit, I recommend Parks Audio stages or the recent RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE. Excellent in all regards, plus you can digitize the signal, which lets you add PEQ into the chain.

Not that this is at all necessary.

 

[totti1965]

hello - thanks in advance

my setup

speakers - 2 Sonos Fives used as a stereo pair

Streamer / DAC - Wiim Pro Plus connected to 3.5m line in on the stereo pair fives (allows me to use roon and wiim room correction and equaliser)

Roon server on a Intel NUC with local flac files and Qoboz for streaming ( connected with optical into the wiiim play plus)

Turntable - Project debut pro s

i connect the turntable via phono pre into the Wiim pro plus - this allows me to use the room correction and equaliser from the Wiim before it goes to line in on the Fives

ok - question time i have three phono pre amp options

1. project - phono mm
2. cambridge audio alva duo
3. replace the Wiim pro plus with the Wiim ultra and use the built in phono pre

Q 1 - on my setup will the phono pre component make a significant sound difference? for convienince would the ultra be "good enough" for price would the project be "good enough" or is this an important enough component for the cambridge audio duo?

Q 2 - for logistical reasons there is a preference for the turntable and the phono pre to be about 5m apart. does running a 5m rca cable from turntable to phono pre matter? in this scenario i am not using the turntable to phono to ground cable/wire - does this matter?

thank you thank you thank you for your opinions

yes, i'm trying to use my (definitely not golden more like copper) ears and blind test but honestly, I would just love the opinion and view of someone who understands the science to give me a steer on best practice in the context of my scenario.



G

optional bonus Q

or should i simplify - forget roon and Wiim room corection and equaliser and just plug the phono pre into the Fives and use Qobuz on the sonos app - ie ignoring "quality of life" improvements is this simplified setup going to match the more complex setup for audio "quality"

yeah, i'm deep in a rabbit hole

Hi @spac3manG, and a warm welcome to ASR!
Do you already own a Cambridge Duo?
If you use it, then best close to the turntable (up to one or two meters or so).
If you don´t have it now, you may consider also the new Fosi Phono Preamp (and save a few bucks):

Fosi Audio Box X5 Phono Preamp Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Fosi Audio Box X5 stereo Phono stage. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $109.99. Company manages to bring a touch of class in a category that is universally utilitarian with those rounded corners and orange power button. Flexibility...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Of course it is necessary to also put it close to the turntable!
Then digitizing the signal and do some Room-/ and / or Speakercorrection is of course a good Idea.

For best speaker correction suggestions please visit http://www.spinorama.org chose measurement quality "high" and take a look at some speakers,
or just search for the SONOS Play 5 for immediate result.

The phono Pre ranking list ist here:

Nice to see that one of the cheapest items is even among the best of the best:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/phono-amplifier-review-index.60240/

The best tested so far:


Cambridge / Michael Fidler / Fosi


Cambridge:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-audio-duo-phono-stage-review-updated.46659/


Michael Fidler:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...l-fidler-spartan-20-phono-stage-review.61993/

https://michaelfidler.com/products/spartan/


Fosi:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../fosi-audio-box-x5-phono-preamp-review.59982/

Look how far to the left the Fosi is! It's actually the best phono amp ever (except for its high-frequency overload capability).
The Cambridge Solo is only so far to the left because the testing procedure back then was a bit less demanding.

Regards,

thorsten

PS: the phono cartridge measurement library for further frequency-response-corrections:

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

Skip to the index. After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script, SJPlot, written by the legendary @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[DSJR]

I'd leave the rig alone basically. Whatever you do wit the turntable system, it'll be expensive and will arguably 'change' the tone rather than make it better! One of the new Ortofon Concorde styli may be more of an upgrade (I still rate the Bronze, but physically check stylus alignment for twisting and leaning to one side first, remembering a recent thread here). The cartridge equates to an OM10 or 2M Red I believe and according to the blurb, any of the OM styli from 20/Concorde Blue upwards would make for an upgrade - I think the new 'coloured' OM styli have been optimised for slightly higher tracking weights unless I'm mistaken.

Changing the phono stage I doubt will make much if any difference unless your existing one has overload issues.