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How far have ss amps really come in the last twenty years??

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SIY

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Actually, I find it more remarkable that people doubt the veracity of my claim or others who make the same.
Perhaps because the claim is dubious and contradicts decades of experiments? And unsupported by any experimental evidence?

I don't doubt that you believe this claim- it's not a matter of veracity- but I deeply doubt the correctness of it.

BTW, you have both the employer and the editorial stance of Julian Hirsch incorrect.
 
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Perhaps because the claim is dubious and contradicts decades of experiments? And unsupported by any experimental evidence?

I don't doubt that you believe this claim- it's not a matter of veracity- but I deeply doubt the correctness of it.

BTW, you have both the employer and the editorial stance of Julian Hirsch incorrect.
Ah, yes Stereo Review. Did I get the editorial stance incorrect? How so? Reading his reviews in the later years, I always thought he looked at features as a main difference, but heard no real SQ differences.

I certainly would like to read more about experimental evidence, but on a certain level it seems like some people who look at one of those Magic Eye pictures and can't see the image hidden inside. The picture is there, but not as easily seen by some.
 

SIY

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Did I get the editorial stance incorrect? How so?
Yes, by attributing something to him that he never said. But the legend lives on...

Even better than reading about the experimental evidence (and there's a pile of it out there if you want to do some searching) is running an experiment yourself. That's what I did when Lipshitz and Vanderkooy (as well as David Clark and several others) published stuff in the '70s and '80s on the audibility of electronics that I absolutely knew was wrong. Of course, my own experiments showed that my belief was mistaken, so I came out of that experience a bit less ignorant.
 

solderdude

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on a certain level it seems like some people who look at one of those Magic Eye pictures and can't see the image hidden inside. The picture is there, but not as easily seen by some.
Perhaps if we can re-position our ears we can hear a 3D soundstage.
 
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Yes, by attributing something to him that he never said. But the legend lives on...

Even better than reading about the experimental evidence (and there's a pile of it out there if you want to do some searching) is running an experiment yourself. That's what I did when Lipshitz and Vanderkooy (as well as David Clark and several others) published stuff in the '70s and '80s on the audibility of electronics that I absolutely knew was wrong. Of course, my own experiments showed that my belief was mistaken, so I came out of that experience a bit less ignorant.
Wait, so are you saying that your experiment led you to believe that you CAN hear a difference in electronics? If so, I don't understand why you're opposing my claim of hearing the difference between my various amps.
 
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Perhaps reading those papers might prove enlightening.
I'll need to look into those papers. Please provide some links when you have some time.

In the meantime, I'd like to say I think you're vastly underestimating the power of human hearing. Hearing a well-regarded tube amp vs. some new ncore module-based amp is like night and day to me. And no, whether or not people prefer one or another is not the question I'm trying to tackle. I'm siding with Stereophile's claim that A-B testing (as the ones I have read up until now) is flawed in several areas.
 
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I'll need to look into those papers. Please provide some links when you have some time.

In the meantime, I'd like to say I think you're vastly underestimating the power of human hearing. Hearing a well-regarded tube amp vs. some new ncore module-based amp is like night and day to me. And no, whether or not people prefer one or another is not the question I'm trying to tackle. I'm siding with Stereophile's claim that A-B testing (as the ones I have read up until now) is flawed in several areas.

Remember, on this site, there are folks who only listen with their measuring gear and get confused if they happen to see anything with their eyes. One thing is certain, they do NOT like to listen with their ears, LMAO. Probably a good thing, as I seriously doubt that they have the ability to hear much anyway...at least according to what they report!!!:oops::D:):):):):facepalm:
 

SIY

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Remember, on this site, there are folks who only listen with their measuring gear and get confused if they happen to see anything with their eyes. One thing is certain, they do NOT like to listen with their ears, LMAO. Probably a good thing, as I seriously doubt that they have the ability to hear much anyway...at least according to what they report!!!:oops::D:):):):):facepalm:
Some of us trust our ears and don't feel the need to peek when doing sonic evaluations. Others don't have that confidence and curiosity about what's real and what isn't.
 

BDWoody

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Perhaps if we can re-position our ears we can hear a 3D soundstage.
I have a unicorn vomit coating for your USB cables that will give you exactly what you have been searching for. End game stuff...Requires 3 months of burn-in. How will you know unless you try?
 

MattHooper

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Back in the days of rec audio newsgroup there was a South Florida stereo dealer, Steven Zipser (real name). Anyhow, his organization, Sunshine Stereo, was his house. Tom Nousaine and Steve Maki challanged the Zipser to a little ABX. Here's Tom's write up, in Audio Critic.
Boy, that one takes me back. It was a real comeuppance for Zipser.

On the other hand, back in those days, I actually took blind testing to heart. I'd perceived what I thought to be some distinct differences between some CD players and a DAC I owned and when challenged on it, I was happy to do some blind testing and accept any result, because I was just as curious if it could be my imagination as well. The tests even being guided by some of the more hard-nosed "objectivists." I easily discerned between the CD players/DAC. The results weren't accepted by the objectivists in question - e.g. Arny K - the general reply being "something MUST have gone wrong somewhere."

Whereas other blind tests I've performed have left me unable to tell audible differences between certain components.
 

MattHooper

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Actually, I find it more remarkable that people doubt the veracity of my claim or others who make the same.
That's because you seem unaware of the scientific facts about human bias and how it can skew our perception.

Do you know why they use placebo controls and double blind testing in many medical trials?

If you had actual experience in testing your beliefs more rigorously, e.g. using blind testing to see if you can actually *hear* the difference, then you likely wouldn't be writing what you write.

All of us here are experienced in sighted testing. Many are ALSO experienced in having tested our perception using blind testing. That's the experience you apparently lack at the moment. It's very eye-opening once you try it.

I do wonder why the skeptics visit sites like this. It seems to me they could just buy some $100 tripath integrated amp and be done with it as everything sounds the same. Reminds me of Julian Hirsch from Audio magazine who kept testing equipment, but never heard a difference between them.
This is a common misconception. Skeptics of the sort at a site like this don't think "everything sounds the same." They only recognize that there are more reliable methods for determining sonic differences than other methods. Your amplifiers may indeed sound different, but to be more sure, you'd want to remove the variable of bias in your perception. Many blind tests show audible differences between components.
 
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Some of us trust our ears and don't feel the need to peek when doing sonic evaluations. Others don't have that confidence and curiosity about what's real and what isn't.
I wouldn't trust your ears....not when you have so much measuring gear available. :rolleyes:
 

MattHooper

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I wouldn't trust your ears....not when you have so much measuring gear available. :rolleyes:

What exactly is your position on this?

Do you flatly deny tall the science showing the effects of human bias?

Do you deny that human perception and inference can be in error - often due to influences the person isn't aware of?

Do you think you can never somehow be wrong in assessing if an audible difference exists - that your subjective perception is infallible?

If you don't think you are infallible, and can make errors of perception like anyone else...how would you go about addressing this fact?
Any method you can suggest?
 
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What exactly is your position on this?

Do you flatly deny tall the science showing the effects of human bias?

Do you deny that human perception and inference can be in error - often due to influences the person isn't aware of?

Do you think you can never somehow be wrong in assessing if an audible difference exists - that your subjective perception is infallible?

If you don't think you are infallible, and can make errors of perception like anyone else...how would you go about addressing this fact?
Any method you can suggest?

I would be happy to answer this question, but before I do, is there an answer that i could possibly give you that you would consider acceptable?
 
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Wait, so are you saying that your experiment led you to believe that you CAN hear a difference in electronics? If so, I don't understand why you're opposing my claim of hearing the difference between my various amps.
no, that isn't what he's saying. He's saying he was as convinced of his golden ears as you are of yours until he put them to the test.
 

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