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Horn Speakers - Is it me or.......

Quote,
‘Very low distortion. A compression driver or horn loaded driver combined with a uniform directivity sounds more realistic compared to front firing drivers. The clarity, detail and resolution is simply better.
3. More engaging sound. I personally believe this is primarily related to a quicker impulse response and not so much do to with the dispersion. After all, other speakers with a narrower directivty simply don't have this trait. An elecronic speaker does for example sound far less engaging, and the B&O Beolab 90 doesn't get closer to a horn in its narrow (cardioide) mode’

Directly comparing my Cessaro ‘Liszt’ ( admittedly not the best engineering but hugely expensive) to the then new Genelec 8260 and subs I didn’t detect any more realism, detail or resolution, which I expected to.
More engaging sound, just more coloured, the Danley Hyperions weren’t coloured they sounded much more like my dynamic designs.
Keith
 
Purité Audio said:
Quote,
‘Very low distortion. A compression driver or horn loaded driver combined with a uniform directivity sounds more realistic compared to front firing drivers. The clarity, detail and resolution is simply better.
3. More engaging sound. I personally believe this is primarily related to a quicker impulse response and not so much do to with the dispersion. After all, other speakers with a narrower directivty simply don't have this trait. An elecronic speaker does for example sound far less engaging, and the B&O Beolab 90 doesn't get closer to a horn in its narrow (cardioide) mode’

Directly comparing my Cessaro ‘Liszt’ ( admittedly not the best engineering but hugely expensive) to the then new Genelec 8260 and subs I didn’t detect any more realism, detail or resolution, which I expected to.
More engaging sound, just more coloured, the Danley Hyperions weren’t coloured they sounded much more like my dynamic designs.
Keith
Click to expand...
A poor horn design doesn't refute what's poosible with a good design. The Genelec 8260 has also very little resemblance to a great horn design. They sound more like traditional speaker IMO. I haven't heard a waveguide horn (a short horn) yet that sounds more realistic either.

The biggest waveguide I've tested was the JBL 2384 but it didn't really come close. Whether it's the size alone or also the fact that it doesn't load as well is uncertain.
JBL 2384 vs 80x50 HF horn.jpg
 
The ‘promise’ of horn realism, was why I ended up with horns in the first place, I believed they would be the ultimate hi-fi expression, the final ‘upgrade’.
As you say most of the commercially available I have heard are poor, but even the Hyperion’s didn’t sound more ‘real’ or have greater resolution and that was again in direct comparison with contemporary actives.
Keith
 
jeffaegrim said:
Just to add my own anecdote here - my horn system is much less impacted by the left/right imbalance I get with normal speakers in my highly asymmetric room. They don’t radiate much sound into the side walls (one of which is a large window), so proper center image is preserved.
Click to expand...
That matches my experience too.
 
Purité Audio said:
The ‘promise’ of horn realism, was why I ended up with horns in the first place, I believed they would be the ultimate hi-fi expression, the final ‘upgrade’.
As you say most of the commercially available I have heard are poor, but even the Hyperion’s didn’t sound more ‘real’ or have greater resolution and that was again in direct comparison with contemporary actives.
Keith
Click to expand...
Can't speak of Hyperion, but the experience of greater realism is a general consensus among those who have experienced large and quality horn speakers. They are more common though among DIYers due to the size required. I think the K-402 horn used in the commercial Klipsch Jubilee certainly has some of the traits, but a 2" exit is really old school and I'm no fan of the Celestion driver they use due to high distortion in the highs. The K-402 horn is lot better with a 4" dia compression driver IMO.
 
Purité Audio said:
The ‘promise’ of horn realism, was why I ended up with horns in the first place, I believed they would be the ultimate hi-fi expression, the final ‘upgrade’.
As you say most of the commercially available I have heard are poor, but even the Hyperion’s didn’t sound more ‘real’ or have greater resolution and that was again in direct comparison with contemporary actives.
Keith
Click to expand...
My experience is similar to yours. I went for horns after initial impressions, and then over time realized that direct radiators (maybe including a waveguide on the tweeter) are actually more pure and accurate if you're not trying to fill a football stadium with sound. But I keep returning to horns, and I think the reason is that I actually prefer a fairly lively space, but I want a speaker to have directional control in that lively space. That's the sound I like. If a direct radiator dynamic could do that, especially in a small form factor, I'd be all over it. From time to time I audition contemporary speakers and immediately hear their strengths, like low coloration and good coherency. But no matter how good their on axis and off axis response, the overall experience is less pleasing for me in my main listening space, with its big screen TV on the wall. In really small spaces, like a small 10' x 12' bedroom, I found small, very wide dispersion speakers worked great on some content, creating some listening experiences that I still think of years later. I've never heard some live performances sound better. That was with me making as large a listening triangle as I could in that space. In very close arrangements with well treated rooms I've been extremely satisfied with small monitors.
 
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Bjorn said:
Can't speak of Hyperion, but the experience of greater realism is a general consensus among those who have experienced large and quality horn speakers. They are more common though among DIYers due to the size required. I think the K-402 horn used in the commercial Klipsch Jubilee certainly has some of the traits, but a 2" exit is really old school and I'm no fan of the Celestion driver they use due to high distortion in the highs. The K-402 horn is lot better with a 4" dia compression driver IMO.
Click to expand...
I suspect different people focus on different elements when they talk of "realism." There is an aspect of realism to horns that I experience, despite the fact that I still think they are relatively colored. I hear coloring effects in real life, so that's why I am not so bothered by them. I was surprised when I went to hear a Russian trio sing at the UofO. They were completely unplugged. No speakers or microphones, and I was hearing things that I would normally associate with "coloration" when evaluating and adjusting my speakers. There was a lot of harshness. Those guys could sing loud!
 
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Tim Link said:
I suspect different people focus on different elements when they talk of "realism." There is an aspect of realism to horns that I experience, despite the fact that I still think they are relatively colored. I hear coloring effects in real life, so that's why I am not so bothered by them. I was surprised when I went to hear a Russian trio sing at the UofO. They were completely unplugged. No speakers or microphones, and I was hearing things that I would normally associate with "coloration" when evaluating and adjusting my speakers. There was a lot of harshness. Those guys could sing loud!
Click to expand...
Or you haven't heard a quality horn yet... I lean towards that, and especially since you are talking about coloration. That's indication of a horn that's poorly designed.
 
Bjorn said:
Or you haven't heard a quality horn yet... I lean towards that, and especially since you are talking about coloration. That's indication of a horn that's poorly designed.
Click to expand...
No, I probably haven't heard the very best horns. I've heard good enough that I'm perfectly happy with them. I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about when I say "coloration." I notice with horns that something unusual is happening in the room when I first start listening. I think what I hear is what some people call coloration because I notice a difference between the live sounds in the room from my shuffling things about and my own voice. Overall, I find the horn sound easier to get along with for long periods of time listening to recordings that are filled with reverberation from the recording venue, or artificially added. The thing about a direct radiator is that it's very wide dispersion pattern can light up the room in a way that's more similar to my own noise making, which can lead to moments of striking presence in some recordings, like the real event just happened in your room and had nothing to do with the recording. I don't get that from horns very often. It might work if the recorded venue happens to sound a lot like my room. Frankly, it doesn't happen with direct radiators very often either. Usually I get it when I'm using some very unorthodox setup, like tweeters well inboard of upper mids, which are well inboard of lower mids. In my opinion, point source coherency is not all that it's cracked up to be by some. Maybe it could be if there were enough speakers and discreet channels.

One test I use for unnatural tone is broad spectrum sounds like surf, or wind, or a rushing river. If I can faintly detect a hollow or boxy effect I know something is off. I haven't been hearing anything like that from my system for years now. I got it a lot when I first started building DIY speakers.

Another thing that interests me is that I can clearly hear the tonal shift from phantom center inter-aural crosstalk interference. This effect, and the effect of room reflections seems to be swamping any tonal issues that I'm hearing with the speakers themselves.
 
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Bjorn said:
Or you haven't heard a quality horn yet... I lean towards that, and especially since you are talking about coloration. That's indication of a horn that's poorly designed.
Click to expand...

Would you be able to nominate a few quality horns? Preferably horns that are easily available (e.g. JBL, Avantgarde). If we are talking horns that have minimal international distribution it would be difficult for me to get to hear them.
 
I think Avantgarde horns are overrated. Or were: I don't keep up with their latest.
 
jeffaegrim said:
Thanks for visualising what that would look like, I guess you’re right!

And I agree with @Tim Link above; it has been stated a few times already but the main purpose of horns for a domestic environment is their pattern control and dynamic range.

Just to add my own anecdote here - my horn system is much less impacted by the left/right imbalance I get with normal speakers in my highly asymmetric room. They don’t radiate much sound into the side walls (one of which is a large window), so proper center image is preserved.

I feel like I can hear the mismatch in directivity between the woofer/horn sometimes, but it never becomes an unpleasant listening experience. Still, a speaker system with controlled directivity lower than 750Hz would be very interesting to audition
Click to expand...

I also agree with Tim Link, and I have very similar speakers (also K-Horns, with Klipsch updates).
I played in several orchestras for several years, and I have heard many different speakers and types thereof, c.1968 through c. 2010. I use Audyssey. With or without Audyssey, I love the sound and the dynamic range is unbelievable! The micro-dynamics are detailed and real sounding. I hear no cupping, no honking, etc. The weakest part of the system is the very occasional slightly harsh closely miked violin (on early CDs).

I have had the same K-horns in 4 rooms, over the years, with the K-horns always pressed firmly into corners, with neoprene seals. The amplifiers went from Luxman to NAD, 100 to 150 w.p.c. continuous "RMS" [sic]. At 150 watts, a Klipschorn produces about the same SPL as 2,000 watts into a typical speaker of 90dB/2.83v/m sensitivity. That would deliver clean peaks of about 116 dB, C weighting, either way (measured at 13 feet).

The current room is about 4,300 cu. ft., with a ceiling that slopes steadily from 8.5 feet to 11 something in the rear, with a mean of about 10 feet high. It sounded best in this and another room about the same size, but held forth well even in a room 1,400 cu. ft. (sweet spot 1 or 2 chairs wide). The sweet spot in the current room is 5 couch seats wide, at 13 feet from the front in the center. By ear, I'm not aware of any undue reflections from the walls, and the frequency balance seems not to vary hardly at all as I walk around the room.

With something like Fanfare for the Common Man with Richard Morris and the Atlanta Brass Ensemble [Sonic Fireworks vol 1 & 2, OR 7012-CD --or the Direct to Disk, if you can get it], the wind from the speakers flaps my pants legs, temporarily throws my desk slightly out of square, makes the couch and floor seem like they are moving. It sounds so clean and pure! Transient response is beyond belief, and, of course, there is very low distortion. As Bjorn said, horn sound tends to be more engaging. Beethoven or Mahler or Miles Davis or Vivaldi or Tavener make me smile, and if I am a bit depressed (rarely) putting on one of these guys makes the sun rise. If you set the volume on Morris' version of Fanfare for the Common Man so the first drum stroke is about 92 dB, C-weighted, "fast," the end should reach about 102/103 dB, and most of your body should react.
 
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Tim Link said:
No, I probably haven't heard the very best horns. I've heard good enough that I'm perfectly happy with them. I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about when I say "coloration." I notice with horns that something unusual is happening in the room when I first start listening. I think what I hear is what some people call coloration because I notice a difference between the live sounds in the room from my shuffling things about and my own voice. Overall, I find the horn sound easier to get along with for long periods of time listening to recordings that are filled with reverberation from the recording venue, or artificially added. The thing about a direct radiator is that it's very wide dispersion pattern can light up the room in a way that's more similar to my own noise making, which can lead to moments of striking presence in some recordings, like the real event just happened in your room and had nothing to do with the recording. I don't get that from horns very often. It might work if the recorded venue happens to sound a lot like my room. Frankly, it doesn't happen with direct radiators very often either. Usually I get it when I'm using some very unorthodox setup, like tweeters well inboard of upper mids, which are well inboard of lower mids. In my opinion, point source coherency is not all that it's cracked up to be by some. Maybe it could be if there were enough speakers and discreet channels.

One test I use for unnatural tone is broad spectrum sounds like surf, or wind, or a rushing river. If I can faintly detect a hollow or boxy effect I know something is off. I haven't been hearing anything like that from my system for years now. I got it a lot when I first started building DIY speakers.

Another thing that interests me is that I can clearly hear the tonal shift from phantom center inter-aural crosstalk interference. This effect, and the effect of room reflections seems to be swamping any tonal issues that I'm hearing with the speakers themselves.
Click to expand...
FIY: The human voice get's more directional at higher frequencies, and is therefore actually quite beamy.
 
Keith_W said:
Would you be able to nominate a few quality horns? Preferably horns that are easily available (e.g. JBL, Avantgarde). If we are talking horns that have minimal international distribution it would be difficult for me to get to hear them.
Click to expand...
I don't think they really exist commercially. One reason is the size required and another is lack of use of active designs with DSP. Passive designs are pretty dumb in itself but even more so with horns.
So the best horns are generally DIY or offered by niche small brands. The closest available commercially by a bigger brand might be Klipsch Jubilee. While it's very good in some areas, it also has some obvious weak points.

JBLs modern smaller waveguides don't sound colored and are good in certain areas but they don't offer the sound of big constant direcitivty horns by any means. The old JBL 2360 was much better in several areas, but struggles with strong resonances that can't be equalized. Some actually sell speakers with the old 2360 today by the way. Though it struggles with the mentioned resonances and uses 2" exit with higher distortion, you still get an impression of how large constant directivity horn can sound like in some areas.
red glossy 2360 up close.jpg
 
garyrc said:
I have had the same K-horns in 4 rooms, over the years, with the K-horns always pressed firmly into corners, with neoprene seals. The amplifiers went from Luxman to NAD, 100 to 150 w.p.c. continuous "RMS" [sic]. At 150 watts, a Klipschorn produces about the same SPL as 2,000 watts into a typical speaker of 90dB/2.83v/m sensitivity. That would deliver clean peaks of about 116 dB, C weighting, either way (measured at 13 feet).
Click to expand...
I have some Khorns too. I hadn't been using them for the last few years, but just last weekend I got it into my head to try to incorporate them into my DIY horn system, which has a standing wave issue inside the bass horns at around 80 Hz. I turned the system into a 4 way, using the Khorn bass bins to cover 60 to 200 Hz. So far I like it. I can hear 80 Hz, and it blends in quite well! The kHorns are not pushed into the corners in this set up, but have little "walls" attached at the back so they load down to about 45 Hz before rolling off. The other horns needed to be cut back slightly to blend them kHorns in. Actually I'm not sure about that because obviously it's a hack job and I haven't properly tested the output. But it measures good in-room and sounds good to me.

Your room seems excellent for the Khorns! Lucky you. I only have 1800 cubic feet in my room but the horns sound good to me in there. The bass can go down to below 10Hz, which is silly overkill.
 
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