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High Resolution Audio?

SIY

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If Oohashi is a true scientist, he would be just as pleased with having his theories disproven as proven.

I don't know him, so I have no idea of his feelings toward the criticisms of his papers. I do know scientists, having been one for the past 40 years or so, and there's as broad a personality spectrum there as in any other endeavor.

Fortunately, the process of science weeds out error (eventually), but that doesn't prevent incorrect results from being grasped tightly by others outside of the specialists. Think of all the people who still cherish the belief that Pons and Fleischman were correct...
 
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eliash

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"Some highly trained listeners can hear a very slight difference when 20kHz band-limited audio signals are compared with wide band signals with certain test material. Under extraordinarily good listening conditions using exceptionally good systems of reproduction with extended response to 40 khz"

Sorry to mention it in this discussion, but the ground was laid anyway.
My system/speakers (2-way Dyns) is probably not made, nor capable extenting up to 40KHz, neither my personal HF hearing limit is higher than 15KHz (on one ear), but I guess up to 25-30KHz are reproducible by the system. The rest of the equipment is OK, from a distortion point of view.

Now there are 2 incidents which you might be able to reproduce by yourself, where I heard differences in the higher frequency range. Speaking in Critical Bands it were probably #22, #23 and #24, ranging from 7.7.-15.5KHz (all with rather broad bandwidths from 1.8-3.5KHz, so there is probably no accurate frequency identification possible).

1. Take e.g. the before mentioned live recorded Thin Lizzy concert from 1978 (Live & Dangerous), which is available as a 192KHz sampled files. It contains significant frequency components above 24KHz, probably directly recorded on 15ips tape, with some 30KHz limit (if I remember my retired Technics RS-1506 capabilites correctly)
Downsample that to 48KHz (not even 44.1) with e.g. SOX (I used the command line setup with max. quality and proper settings).
That did not sound as bright and precise in the mentioned range, as the original file. In contrast to the below, the 48K tracks exibited no increased distortion impression. Sampling down to 96KHz and comparing to 192KHz revealed no audible difference

2. Take some DSD or SACD-ISO, run it through that foobar converter plugin to 88KHz/WAV/FLAC (best quality) with or without 30KHz filter and there is as well a difference audible. Without filter, the sound is brighter, combined with some harshness, maybe described similar as if there would be 3rd order distortion (as we learned above, noise in magnitude of the audible signal itself). With the filter it sounds simply clean and not lacking some high frequncy components. That high frequency energy above the hearing band without filter is even visible in the file size, these files are some few % larger, than the filtered ones. Doing these tests at decent loudness, they shouldn´t have exceeded the linear range of my equipment.

In both cases listen to cymbals, there it became most audible to me.
I am not saying everybody is able hear it, maybe even younger listeners are not able, because their hearing system (from eardrum to "brain processing") does not exibit as much distortion as from someone in my age >55.
From other experiments running a frequency sweep on one channel and fixed frequencies of 1 - 3KHz on the other, revealed beating (difference) tones around identical frequencies and also weaker ones at multiples of the fixed.
In my case, maybe some estimated 20-40dB lower than the original ones.
These difference tones vanish of course, when listening by headphone, until you "mono" the signal, then as well audible. In that mono case no significant difference was audible, when listening by speakers.

Cutting a long story short, my five cents are that the human hearing system mixes down ultrasoninc content to the audible range in a "broadband or bulk manor" due to nonlinear effects.
Anyway, in the first example it sounds better to me, when not downsampled below 96KHz.
Give it a try yourself!
 
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RayDunzl

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Cutting a long story short, my five cents are that the human hearing system mixes down ultrasoninc content to the audible range in a "broadband or bulk manor" due to nonlinear effects.

Being particularly immune to higher frequencies, which gives me a much greater range of "ultrasonic content" (everything I listen to has "ultrasonic content"), and having experimented with brickwalling frequencies in a recording above those which I can hear, and not noticing a difference, would lead me to reject your general hypothesis, at least in my case.
 

GrimSurfer

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Yeah, Ray. I didn't buy it either.
 

RayDunzl

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I remember now.

As a cross-check of the result above, I brickwalled the lower frequencies that I can hear, leaving only the frequencies above my cutoff in the air, and heard nothing.

(experimental frequency adjustments verified by measurement mic, which doesn't suffer from my defliction in what are considered to be the audible frequencies)
 

Blumlein 88

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If Oohashi is a true scientist, he would be just as pleased with having his theories disproven as proven.

The real take away that I draw from the paper is this: Commericial interest is both has both a limiting and enabling influence on bullshit.

Those in the early radio business would have profited from setting a low range of human hearing. Microphone, transmitter, recorder and loudspeaker costs would have been reduced if, say, the accepted range was 20 Hz to 10 kHz.

Those in the contemporary audio business can, and often do, profit by advancing the postulates that human hearing and perception continue past ~18 kHz. Doing so opens all kinds of commercial opportunities regardless of the legitimacy of the underlying science.

All of that said, it is noteworthy the BBC (a publicly funded Institution that operates a multitude of "for profit" services) seems to have arrived at the closest, earliest definition of audible sound. It would be interesting to learn more about the corporate culture and workforce in place that allowed (or enabled) this to happen, as it might reveal a model that legitimate audio companies could use.

Where there's a buck to be saved or made, people will try to shape outcomes accordingly. That piece may never change!

Early work in human hearing often cited human hearing as 30 hz to 15 khz. The thinking was the thresholds steepen so much beyond these frequencies they effectively were meaningless in normal hearing situations. Notice even recent ISO equal loudness curves and the Fletcher-Munson curves don't go past 15 khz. It is estimated beyond that.
1560565428944.png


So sure with very high SPL tones young adults could hear something to around 20 khz. But with masking, and the increased thresholds, very rarely listening to music or other natural sounds would having response beyond 15 khz make a perceptible difference. It isn't quite as sharp on the low end, and very loud low frequencies are more common, but a similar thing there. Also looking at the hair cells that respond according to place theory indicates there aren't any meant to respond beyond 15 or 16 khz. The weak response above that at elevated thresholds is more of a side effect of the topmost band of our hearing. So effectively there is little perceptible difference between 15 khz and 20 khz bandwidth. Now in audiophile circles with the ages of participants I wouldn't be surprised if in general 10 khz is plenty. Oops! Fortunately we don't have to debate that as achieving 20 khz is relatively easy. Upping that to 40 khz just in case seems un-needed to me.
 

eliash

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Yeah, Ray. I didn't buy it either.

Ok, thanks for the feedback.
I did not want to start a "religious" discussion here, just a personal observation, describing the details and a theory with it, nothing more and nothing less.
Besides that, I can also live without the ultrasonic content and its influence to my hearing, nor do I regard it as commercially valuable, just interesting...
 

eliash

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I remember now.

As a cross-check of the result above, I brickwalled the lower frequencies that I can hear, leaving only the frequencies above my cutoff in the air, and heard nothing.

(experimental frequency adjustments verified by measurement mic, which doesn't suffer from my defliction in what are considered to be the audible frequencies)

What I meant above is not exactly what you where going for.
The idea is, with a nonlinear element in the hearing chain (my ears), I was also able to produce distortion (called IMD in the audio world) in the hearing band, i.e. low frequency beating tones at significant level...they can be identified easily, because they are in a completely different frequency range (I think I read about it as well in some scientific book about psychoacoustics)...just proving some nonlinear effects of the ear, which could be the reason for my ultrasonic perception.
 

Wombat

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The world beyond 20kHz

[PDF] https://www.earthworksaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/The-world-beyond-20kHz.pdf

[ THERE IS MUCH controversy about how we might move forward towards higher quality reproduction of sound. The compact-disc standard assumes that there is no useful information beyond 20kHz and therefore includes a brick-wall filter just above 20kHz. Many listeners hear a great difference when 20kHz band-limited audio signals are compared with wide band signals. A number of digital systems have been proposed which sample audio signals at 96kHz and above, and with up to 24 bits of quantization.

Many engineers have been trained to believe that human hearing receives no meaningful input from frequency components above 20kHz. I have read many irate letters from such engineers insisting that information above 20kHz is clearly useless, and any attempts to include such information in audio signals is deceptive, wasteful and foolish, and that any right-minded audio engineer should realize that this 20kHz limitation has been known to be an absolute limitation for many decades. Those of us who are convinced that there is critically important audio information to at least 40kHz are viewed as misguided... ]


How about SOME Verification!

High resolution and high DR are unrelated as in low DR recordings can be captured with high digital sample rates.
 
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solderdude

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Me thinks you can test this hypothesis (non linearities in the ear) by playing a 19kHz + 20khz tone (using a 192kHz file) which should then become audible.
The trick here would be to use the left speaker to produce the 19kHz and the right one to produce the 20kHz with the speakers close to each other.
This is to prevent the speakers themselves to create IMD.
Don't play too loud as you can't hear it and may blow up tweeters in the process.

Better yet perhaps... make it 2 small bursts at the same time so you get repeated 'impulses'
When you hear 'something' that should be caused by non-linearities in the hearing (or of some other acoustic or mechanical origin)


The question marks I have about the audible aspects of beyond 20kHz (or us older farts beyond 15kHz) info is that the amount of 'energy' that would be needed to make something sound extra 'bright/detailed' would probably need to be substantial.. and it isn't looking at FR analysis of actual music files.
As the ears don't register the frequencies and assuming the first wavefront theory (I heard J_J speak about this) still works as when we are youngsters that would make a compelling case (as some people try to tell us)
The issue I have with this is I found the 'clarity' to be in the 6-10kHz range and not beyond.
To get the brain to get the idea that this frequency range needs to be 'enhanced' when some (related) ultrasonics are present should be demonstrable.
Also why would only some folks (that happen to be audiophile and old) and not all audio afficionados have this ?
At least not with well performed blind tests that is.

I have to admit I am older too and have hearing topping out at 14kHz, and some loss in sensitivity as well, yet I don't experience that my hearing is compromised or 'less' in any way compared to my younger years.
In fact I feel my hearing abilities (when it is about hearing nuances, subtleties and detecting distortion etc.) haven't become any less but may even have 'improved' over the years (just like my body and amount of hair ?).
Yet I know objectively my hearing sucks compared to 30 years ago (looking at experiments and tests conducted) and my hair is noticeably less in quantity.

It's an interesting subject and get Sergei's fascination about this. My take on this is... when you feel you benefit from ultrasonics just buy hires material (which may only contain info up to 20kHz or so sometimes) and buy those speakers/headphones that have been measured to show to extend well beyond 20kHz and enjoy that.
Those that can't hear it and just want to make sure they have the best should also use hires.
The ones that can't hear it can use 44/16 or high bitrate MP3 and be happy with the saved amount of cash.

Why the need to convince others that they can or can't hear ultrasonics ? I really don't give a crap if someone else actually hears it or not nor where they spend their money on. The only thing that matters is what one hears themselves. I know my limits and what I like and what not.
Why moan about impulses and the timing when currently available 192/24 can resolve all that is recorded and there are formats far beyond it.
 

maty

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You are always thinking of modern recordings, with all digital and almost no acoustic instrumentation. Where it is appreciated is with music from old analog tapes and modern direct recordings in DSD.

When ripping the vinyl, with that analog origin, is when the differences are much more evident. With commercial modern music, so badly produced nor I raise the disquisition.

Such as my experience.
 

solderdude

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Your experience may just be that ... your experience which may or may not be based on correct or incorrect conclusions drawn on observations you made.
Just like mine and everyone else's is.
Most likely the way the observations are done and the conclusions drawn substantially differ.

And NO I am not thinking (certainly not always) of old nor new recordings nor vinyl, tape, digital or whatever in mind.
Also I am not talking about loudness or mastering issues.
My personal preference is well recorded music that is pleasant to my brain (not popular modern squashed to death 'music')
 

maty

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I will do the test with the last work of Bruce Springsteen. I doubt I can appreciate the difference when I go from 24/96 FLAC (from HDtracks) to 16/44 FLAC with SoX 44.1 with foobar2000.

Bruce Springsteen - Western Stars (2019) (HDtracks) {24-96} [FLAC] DR7

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post5823475.html

Trust me, that same experience is shared by many more people who enjoy excellent recordings, mostly from vinyl and analog master. There are very few available recordings that have been recorded directly in DSD, without further manipulation.

Classical music in direct DSD can be awesome. The problem is that nowadays the spectacularity is sought, with a sound too bright due to too high tuning. I prefer old interpretations.
 

Blumlein 88

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I will do the test with the last work of Bruce Springsteen. I doubt I can appreciate the difference when I go from 24/96 FLAC (from HDtracks) to 16/44 FLAC with SoX 44.1 with foobar2000.

Bruce Springsteen - Western Stars (2019) (HDtracks) {24-96} [FLAC] DR7

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post5823475.html

Trust me, that same experience is shared by many more people who enjoy excellent recordings, mostly from vinyl and analog master. There are very few available recordings that have been recorded directly in DSD, without further manipulation.

Classical music in direct DSD can be awesome. The problem is that nowadays the spectacularity is sought, with a sound too bright due to too high tuning. I prefer old interpretations.
Odd that Springsteen's Nebraska sounds pretty good. Has DR13. Was recorded to cassette. 4 track cassette, but still cassette. In his bedroom with a pair of Shure SM57's. Exactly what is it all the people get paid for to eff up the recordings we get today? Nebraska was handled by his favorite roadie who didn't know anything about recording much. Just figured it out at the time.

BTW, thanks for mentioning Western Stars. I didn't know about it. And I do likes me some Springsteen. I can stream it over Amazon music. Not hires, but at least I can listen to it.
 

maty

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Bruce Springsteen - Nebraska (1982), Vinyl, Columbia, US

https://www.discogs.com/es/Bruce-Springsteen-Nebraska/release/648676

R-648676-1414015673-5124.jpeg.jpg


DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR12 -3.31 dB -20.30 dB 4:30 01-Nebraska
DR12 -1.88 dB -17.53 dB 3:59 02-Atlantic City
DR12 -3.01 dB -20.09 dB 4:06 03-Mansion on the Hill
DR12 -2.17 dB -17.98 dB 3:41 04-Johnny 99
DR14 -3.33 dB -20.94 dB 5:40 05-Highway Patrolman
DR12 -2.98 dB -19.34 dB 3:11 06-State Trooper
DR12 -5.35 dB -23.18 dB 3:07 07-Used Cars
DR11 -3.21 dB -17.37 dB 2:55 08-Open All Night
DR13 -0.27 dB -20.38 dB 5:02 09-My Father's House
DR12 -3.87 dB -20.44 dB 4:10 10-Reason to Believe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 10
Official DR value: DR12

It is and old rip with other hard. In the comment I wrote: Vinyl Rip 24/96 -> 16/48 TPDF. Well, I think it need a new rip and maybe a better pressing?

and with older library: reference libFLAC 1.2.1 20070917

dr.loudness-war.info Bruce Springsteen - Nebraska
 
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maty

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foobar2000-Bruce-Springsteen-Western-Stars-2496-2444.jpg



foobar2000 1.4.4. Output: Kernel Streaming. Buffer lenght 50 ms. Without any type of DSP.

24/96 vs 24/44.1 - SoX 441000, Normal, 95%, [ ] Allow aliasing, without. FLAC 0.

02. The Wayfarer

I can hear the difference for a few seconds. Small. Very difficult to pass an ABX test.
 
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maty

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JRiver MC v24.0.78 64 bits. Kernel Streaming. 50 ms. Without any DSP.

02. The Wayfarer

24/96 sounds more open, with more HF than with foobar2000.

24/44 less open, more LF vs 24/96.

The difference is higher than before (foobar2000).

BTW, I like more 24/44! Maybe because is without/minimal compression, FLAC 0.


PS: Win 10 Pro 1809 64 bits (clean install). Very optimized to play multimedia.
 
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maty

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02. The Wayfarer has better sound, in JRMC, with DSP Effects: Recording Studio [1]. Now I prefer 24/96. Well, 24/44 has more bass, more pleasure. Maybe with less bass...

Again 24/96 with DSP Effects: Living Room [1]. I like it more.

It is evident that the recording is somewhat deficient because I have to use DSP.


PS: Test with my LOVED KEF Q100 5.25" coaxial speakers, tweaked and modded by me.
 
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