HIFIMAN Susvara Headphone Review

[G-Can]

$6,000 of snake oil at its finest packaging.

 

[usern]

Has anyone disassembled Susvaras? Is there any passive electronics there?

Spoiler

 

[Rhamnetin]

Because maybe is what your Topping can drive, you are measuring the distortion of the amplifier all the times.
Please, go back to test just Dacs,

Yes because the A90 has so much distortion: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...topping-a90-headphone-amplifier-review.13592/

I really just don't understand how grown men can be so emotional over a piece of gear being measured. Why let it upset you ? To make it even worse what upsets them is based on straw-men fallacies and a willful ignorance over the very thing that they criticize and upsets them. Furthermore most don't even care about measurements to begin with ! lol I swear.....

Unfortunately that's how people are. Indeed they shouldn't care; if they actually like how it sounds, that's all that really matters at the end of the day. Though if they have the opportunity to sell it and get something cheaper that they prefer (something I've been able to do thanks to data-driven reviews), even better.

 

[majingotan]

Why should we trust your ears? If my ears are different than yours, what possible value is there to tell us what you hear??? Or anyone else saying anything about Susvara?

This reviewer who I post earlier said this at the start of his review:

"When I’ve received the mighty Hifiman Susvara, I felt overwhelmed by…disappointment. I said to myself: “This is really it? This is how the world’s best headphones are sounding?” As something was gravely missing its mark. Detail retrieval and a much higher transparency were in place, but as a transient response nut, I couldn’t feel my tunes speaking to me, I was almost maxed out on a Benchmark HPA4 and still, musical notes wouldn’t fly away and envelop my entire body. Engagement factor was nowhere to be found, all that remained was a thin, lifeless and boring sounding metallic carcass that sent my thoughts into the abyss."

You agree with his characterization in bold?

Agreed with the review with me as an actual owner of the Susvara. That's pretty much how it's gonna sound on a SOTA system hence why I curated as specific system for it to mask all Susvara's faults and only highlight its strengths through analog signal manipulation rather than digital signal manipulation so that I'm not tied to a specific source with a specific software, etc. Sennheiser HE-1, Warwick Acoustics Aperio and Bravura all had some sort of DSP along with analog signal manipulation to mask their shortcomings and only highlight their strengths, and that's pretty much disclosed on how manufacturers designed their all-in-one unit. Susvara OTOH is standalone and as such all its flaws and strenghts are highligted with a SOTA audio chain that's why you'll rarely find it hooked up on a SOTA chain such as the AHB2, HPA4, Topping, SMSL etc., but rather poor performing chains such as tubes (Feliks Envy, WA33, etc.), poor hybrid tube amp (Riviera AIC-10 Bal or Hifiman's EF1000 amp), and poor performing speaker amps (KECES S300)

To all the HIFIMAN Susvara owners out there: Had you read this ASR review before you bought the Susvaras would you still buy them?

Would buy it again if it breaks on me. To my subjective preferences, they sound tonally correct and incredibly engaging that I just lost myself in musical bliss a little bit more than other flagships that I've tried (Stealth, Expanse, Caldera, Focal Utopia, etc.) without any EQ or digital signal manipulation at all (just effect box tube amp).

 

[TurtlePaul]

Then I don't understand one thing: if a person buys Susvara and likes it, what changes after seeing the measurements?

I suspect that people hear them and they don’t sound like any headphone they heard before. They buy into the ideas of transient response, the superior tech of planar drivers, etc. This review shows that they sound like no other headphones because 2 khz, -7 dB, Q 2.5 and because of cup resonances. It isn’t some magic.

edit: forgot to mention that for the longest time these had the reputation as “impossible to power” which is actually grwat for the Susvaras and for Wilson speakers for example. Any time anyone critisizes them “bad amps” can be used as a get out of jail card. The review shows that these have actually flawed characteristics and like Wilson speakers, there are some things in the response which are just not right - on top of being senselessly difficult to power.

 

[Sebby]

Yes because the A90 has so much distortion: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...topping-a90-headphone-amplifier-review.13592/



Unfortunately that's how people are. Indeed they shouldn't care; if they actually like how it sounds, that's all that really matters at the end of the day. Though if they have the opportunity to sell it and get something cheaper that they prefer (something I've been able to do thanks to data-driven reviews), even better.

I agree with almost everything, but it's a risk to rely only on measurements (still better than relying on various reviewers on the Internet).
70% of my equipment was purchased after Amir's "ok" and his measurements and I am satisfied with it. Right now I have some HE400se with Amir's EQ on my head. With Zero Red however it was a disaster and I gave them away after a few days. The 7hz Zero 2 will arrive on Friday and we'll see if the thing happens again (I already know that I'll give them away even if I like them. I'll take them out of pure curiosity). One of my IEMs is from FinalAudio (s'next) and I love them and I know for a fact that they would measure poorly both in distortion, L/R coupling and FR.
At that point, leaving aside cases of truly bad engineering, were many distortions and apparently "bad" FRs purposely inserted into the design to achieve a certain result? Let's not forget that psychoacoustics plays a significant role...

 

[solderdude]

HE1.... do you think sennheiser's technicians made some DSP (EQUALIZATION) by the internal DAC software to approach the Harman Curve?

Yep, there is DSP, just like in the Sonoma.

 

[solderdude]

That headphone does measure well though. Are there measurements of the amplifier?

No, it is part of a closed system. You can't use it with other headphones.

 

[solderdude]

Just wondering what hpa you suggest to power the Susvara without distorting?

The measured distortion is not amp dependent. It appears to be a resonance that turns nasty at high SPL.

What amp you need to use will depend on how loud you want it to go.

 

[Tachyon88]

Then I don't understand one thing: if a person buys Susvara and likes it, what changes after seeing the measurements?

Nothing, other than upsetting some of the people that already like it.

What is hard to comprehend about it? Sure, if you don’t care about measurements then that is fine, but it’s like anyone telling you the thing you spent major $$ on is objectively horrible with no silver linings or subjective opinions being possible about it. You wasted the money, you’re stupid, etc etc it becomes a personal affront to what that individual just spent major cash on vs a more subjective “I personally thought they were boring” type of opinion.

None of that should matter if you already like it. Why do you (in a general sense) need affirmation for already liking something, despite something performing poorly especially when price is factored in ? I think the bigger problem is being too thinned skin and defensive. People say things all the time that I disagree with. If someone is that bothered and upset by someone else opinion they don't even care about in the first place on a site they don't like to begin with, I would have some introspection. Plus there is far more venom(personal attacks) on that other site anyways. Its just a headphone....

 

[caught gesture]

were many distortions and apparently "bad" FRs purposely inserted into the design to achieve a certain result? Let's not forget that psychoacoustics plays a significant role...

I’d understand that idea…
except that the marketing states, The result is reduced distortion, yielding a purer, more harmonious sound.
Can’t we just accept that headphones at this sort of price are not about providing the ultimate sonic bliss, but about separating people from their money. It’s all about status rather than music.

Edit: I see that for 18K they offer you Shangri-La. A Mystically Divine Experience of the entire musical spectrum. ffs…

 

[solderdude]

Has anyone disassembled Susvaras? Is there any passive electronics there?

Spoiler

The pics I have seen shows just a driver and it would be highly unlikely as that would show up in the impedance plot and having inductors next to strong magnets would not be the best idea either.

 

[Sebby]

I’d understand that idea…
except that the marketing states, The result is reduced distortion, yielding a purer, more harmonious sound.
Can’t we just accept that headphones at this sort of price are not about providing the ultimate sonic bliss, but about separating people from their money. It’s all about status rather than music.

Edit: I see that for 18K they offer you Shangri-La. A Mystically Divine Experience of the entire musical spectrum. ffs…

I wasn't talking about Susvara but in a general sense. For me no headphone should cost €6000 regardless of its performance. My psychological limit is Arya Organic or HD800s, therefore under €1500.
I've heard Susvara and I prefer the tone of the HE400se, even though it apparently seems more open and detailed to my ears. I have never read the manufacturer's marketing phrases before making a purchase.
When they happen before my eyes the only thing I can say is "ok, so what?".

 

[fivepast8]

Butthurt much?

You're done in this thread.

Aren't we all, Sir?

After being conditioned for decades by Stereophile and Absolute Sound, believing their reviewers that the Bryston SST sounded just that tad bit better than the previous ST and saving up our then meagerly Silicon Valley dollars to upgrade the amp. Inviting your mates over to listen to the new bliss.... The most "butthurt" comes from having to acknowledge now, on how very phooled we were, despite having advanced physics and engineering degrees from some of the best engineering colleges anywhere. We were so schizophrenic that we designed and built equipment for other purposes using proper science but at home believed all that glossy audiophile literature.

Yes indeed "butt hurt" and terribly embarrassed...

 

[Sokel]

Is there any other headphone to be reviewed that would generate as much controversy as this?

Wait for Audeze CRBN.

 

[Rhamnetin]

Edit: I see that for 18K they offer you Shangri-La. A Mystically Divine Experience of the entire musical spectrum. ffs…

I'd like to see that measured.

 

[Chuck S]

Then I don't understand one thing: if a person buys Susvara and likes it, what changes after seeing the measurements?

I’m hesitant to reply, given the state of this conversation, but two things changed for me: I‘ve had to acknowledge that my taste may be more than a little idiosyncratic. But also, I’m sorry to say, my confidence in the value of transducer measurements - to me, given my tastes - is a bit shaken.

 

[Rhamnetin]

I’m hesitant to reply, given the state of this conversation, but two things changed for me: I‘ve had to acknowledge that my taste may be more than a little idiosyncratic. But also, I’m sorry to say, my confidence in the value of transducer measurements - to me, given my tastes - is a bit shaken.

That's fine, not everyone is going to prefer a linear, neutral tuning. At least with the HE1000s which have a somewhat similar frequency response, when listening to them it's immediately apparent that HiFiMan is going for... something different with them. Apparently the designer has said in interviews (but not at all in the product documentation) that they're going for some kind of concert hall effect, which apparently the Audivina tries to do more than any of their others and as a result has an extremely wonky FR.

https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/hp/hifiman-audivina.php#gsc.tab=0

Though looking back at the marketing, they're all over the place, calling them studio headphones and claiming, "AUDIVINA offers the wide soundstage of an acoustically perfect concert hall, yet with the detail and intimacy of a jazz club, thanks to the NEO Supernano Diaphragm."

 

[Coverpage]

Has anyone disassembled Susvaras? Is there any passive electronics there?

Spoiler

I have. I couldn’t see any. Unless it’s packed into the driver assembly but probably not.

 

[DFW]

Agreed with the review with me as an actual owner of the Susvara. That's pretty much how it's gonna sound on a SOTA system hence why I curated as specific system for it to mask all Susvara's faults and only highlight its strengths through analog signal manipulation rather than digital signal manipulation so that I'm not tied to a specific source with a specific software, etc. Sennheiser HE-1, Warwick Acoustics Aperio and Bravura all had some sort of DSP along with analog signal manipulation to mask their shortcomings and only highlight their strengths, and that's pretty much disclosed on how manufacturers designed their all-in-one unit. Susvara OTOH is standalone and as such all its flaws and strenghts are highligted with a SOTA audio chain that's why you'll rarely find it hooked up on a SOTA chain such as the AHB2, HPA4, Topping, SMSL etc., but rather poor performing chains such as tubes (Feliks Envy, WA33, etc.), poor hybrid tube amp (Riviera AIC-10 Bal or Hifiman's EF1000 amp), and poor performing speaker amps (KECES S300)



Would buy it again if it breaks on me. To my subjective preferences, they sound tonally correct and incredibly engaging that I just lost myself in musical bliss a little bit more than other flagships that I've tried (Stealth, Expanse, Caldera, Focal Utopia, etc.) without any EQ or digital signal manipulation at all (just effect box tube amp).

A company that sells headphones for 6k, that don’t even measure well, is laughing all the way to the bank. Even if they did measure well a 50% margin is a 3k gross profit. There’s no way they have 3k of cost in that product. Makes no sense.