HIFIMAN Susvara Headphone Review

[nyxnyxnyx]

I don't think anyone ever claimed the Susvara was the king of anything, because of it's high pricepoint this headphone has always been tested in a very critical way. But I did my own research I found most trustable review sources (and with this I don't mean youtube) claiming this headphone until today is still considered in the top of the list. Like hasen't the Susvara been on the market forever? Extensively tested by many experts in the last 7 Years? So why does this "measurement problem" come up all of a sudden only in this forum in this topic? Why only here by 1 person?

From a guy that's been on both sides of audio spectrum (purely audiophile / purely scientific) this is what I think:

-With headfi, other audiophile sites etc.... they mostly evaluate something with their own experience, so if they think its good they'll say so. The problem is the verdicts vary a lot from people to people, so even if you ask 10 owners of this headphones you might not even get the 5 similar conclusions. Not to mention if we're being skeptical or doubtful, there are many beneficial interests for the audiophile influencers to sway their words.

-With more objective, logical audio sites like here, solderdude's website, Tyll (no longer here).... We listen & evaluate a product by its performance, as well as cross-checking it to see if it matches the specs the manufacturer publishes. So naturally if it measures good it will receive praises, if not it'll face some criticisms. It's usually clearer and more consistent than the vague reviews and evaluations from audiophile sources. But again measurement does not always translate into the same experience for each person. That's why I think it's good to be reasonable and not leaning too hard on either camp.

I assume that might be why something like Grado were pretty popular and accepted as good sounding to both some casuals and audiophiles back then, despite measuring worse than the many many other headphones.

 

[renaudrenaud]

From a guy that's been on both sides of audio spectrum (purely audiophile / purely scientific) this is what I think:

-With headfi, other audiophile sites etc.... they mostly evaluate something with their own experience, so if they think its good they'll say so. The problem is the verdicts vary a lot from people to people, so even if you ask 10 owners of this headphones you might not even get the 5 similar conclusions. Not to mention if we're being skeptical or doubtful, there are many beneficial interests for the audiophile influencers to sway their words.

-With more objective, logical audio sites like here, solderdude's website, Tyll (no longer here).... We listen & evaluate a product by its performance, as well as cross-checking it to see if it matches the specs the manufacturer publishes. So naturally if it measures good it will receive praises, if not it'll face some criticisms. It's usually clearer and more consistent than the vague reviews and evaluations from audiophile sources. But again measurement does not always translate into the same experience for each person. That's why I think it's good to be reasonable and not leaning too hard on either camp.

I assume that might be why something like Grado were pretty popular and accepted as good sounding to both some casuals and audiophiles back then, despite measuring worse than the many many other headphones.

The problem here is measurements vs price.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

The problem here is measurements vs price.

yes the price of this particular product is indeed a problem, for this mediocrity objective performance.
but some people here are too focused on prices even if a product measures great, the most recent example I can think of is that Weiss DAC. most people voted it poor even though the measurement was quite great. so even if the measurement of Susvara is within the top 5 ever, I think many will still vote it badly due to price, and once again, I think we should separate the two when it comes to debates of measurements.

 

[Coverpage]

Ah... yes. The old "since this industrially manufactured consumer products does not do well in objective tests, we need to change the tests." My suggestion is that we ditch the Harman curve for the new Susvara curve, that way, those pesky 20 dollar in-ears will deviate as far as they deserve. While we are at it, I've always found the exhaust-fumes of the '76 Bronco to be quite revitalizing and if it does not fit the current emission criteria, well... have you inhaled it yourself?

I understand that owners of these expensive headphones need to find some reason for their preference, and that it can be difficult to cope with bad measurement results. There are a few classical retorts that have not been used yet in this thread so I came up with a couple of discussion points, a cope-hope if you will:

1. The Topping is a toy, you should be using the Le Arnaque Mk2 with the Falsk Kötbulle cable
2. But what did the artist intend? Do you think Beethoven cared about distortion? He was deaf you know.

By believing the measurements blindly, you are just as unscientific as the audiophiles that you criticise. Please read my earlier post.

There is no clear goal in the measurement, does it intend to measure whether a pair of headphones sounds better than another, has it been verified through a survey to know that the methodology works.

Saying a Susvara loses to iems costing 10s of dollars is a very bold claim, having heard both its highly unlikely in my personal opinion that anyone would choose the iem over the Susvara. So is the measurement really trying to tell which headphone or iem is likely to sound better to a user. If not, what is it for?


Secondly, there’s a big hole where it implicitly assume the system is LTI. Therefore you don’t need to measure any other metric as the FR curve is sufficient. This is not true.

 

[IAtaman]

From a guy that's been on both sides of audio spectrum (purely audiophile / purely scientific) this is what I think:

-With headfi, other audiophile sites etc.... they mostly evaluate something with their own experience, so if they think its good they'll say so. The problem is the verdicts vary a lot from people to people, so even if you ask 10 owners of this headphones you might not even get the 5 similar conclusions. Not to mention if we're being skeptical or doubtful, there are many beneficial interests for the audiophile influencers to sway their words.

-With more objective, logical audio sites like here, solderdude's website, Tyll (no longer here).... We listen & evaluate a product by its performance, as well as cross-checking it to see if it matches the specs the manufacturer publishes. So naturally if it measures good it will receive praises, if not it'll face some criticisms. It's usually clearer and more consistent than the vague reviews and evaluations from audiophile sources. But again measurement does not always translate into the same experience for each person. That's why I think it's good to be reasonable and not leaning too hard on either camp.

I assume that might be why something like Grado were pretty popular and accepted as good sounding to both some casuals and audiophiles back then, despite measuring worse than the many many other headphones.

I think it is a fallacy to believe that the headphone reviews Amir does are more objective than others. They are not.

In fact it is a fallacy to think headphones can be reviewed objectively.

What you can do objectively is to to measure a few basic parameters, check if something is broken, and if it is not, you need to listen to it, which is what Amir does. He has a reference grade measurement rig so his measurements are comparable to Harman target. He also has listening training. And that is that. Maybe better qualified subjective assessments, but subjective assessments nonetheless.

In this review Amir "disqualifies" this headphone saying that he hears static (not clear at what level) and blames them on high frequency issues. Where is that in the measurement exactly, can you point out?

 

[jody2k]

The problem here is measurements vs price.

I'm not expert in this at all but in my experience so far when it comes to "mid-fi or hi-fi" is diminishing returns are a big thing to consider too.
For example a Susvara is maybe 10-15% better than a HE400SE, but costs 15x the price. From a pure rational perspective it's not worth the price, but in the hi-fi world it depends on how much you value that last 10% of performance, for some it might be worth it for others it won't.

 

[FINFET]

I don't think anyone ever claimed the Susvara was the king of anything, because of it's high pricepoint this headphone has always been tested in a very critical way. But I did my own research I found most trustable review sources (and with this I don't mean youtube) claiming this headphone until today is still considered in the top of the list. Like hasen't the Susvara been on the market forever? Extensively tested by many experts in the last 7 Years? So why does this "measurement problem" come up all of a sudden only in this forum in this topic? Why only here by 1 person?

Today it's not that easy to find someplace non-profit, professional enough to judge, and not affected by any price and confirmation bias like here. Editors of review sites need quite a bit of courage to say nay to TOTL flagship products from significant player in the industry, or to disappoint their customers who also bear confirmation bias for long.
It's still good planar after all. Like if you spend $4K on HD650, there's nothing wrong for any reviewer to say it's a good headphone. Just not measured that good objectively, comparing with other products, which is not considered a big deal in many other communities.

 

[solderdude]

in the hi-fi world it depends on how much you value that last 10% of performance, for some it might be worth it for others it won't

 

[Laniciffo]

Would a multitone test with each frequency weighted to typical real music levels provide a better metric for distortion evaluation ?

Maybe multiple weighting profiles could be used to provide different THD figures for rap (bass heavy), vocal or classical music.

 

[Madlop26]

Oh, how the mighty has fallen…..anyway, happy Christmas Amir and to all you guys!

 

[solderdude]

Would a multitone test with each frequency weighted to typical real music levels provide a better metric for distortion evaluation ?

This looks really messy and thus is really hard to interpret.

Amir's 114dB measurement is fine but only look at it between 20Hz and 300Hz
The 104dB measurement can be used over the entire range and can show some problematic areas
The 94dB is probably what you want to look at as 'pleasantly loud' levels combined with the 20Hz-300Hz range from the 104dB tests.
This is roughly comparable with 80dB average SPL so an 'active' listening level one can endure for a few songs without turning the music down.
Late at night, long listening sessions, are between 65dB and 75dB average so the 94dB trace is fine.
Not many headphones have audible distortion at these levels.

Amir tests at limits and this can show some issues with headphones. No one listens to music with 114dB peaks at 1kHz and above but in the low bass, with Harman boost and impressive rumbles 114dB SPL is not really loud.

 

[the_brunx]

Give them a little metal and a touch of wood and jack the price ten fold and they will happily pay it and rave about it in their snob circles. LOL

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

I think it is a fallacy to believe that the headphone reviews Amir does are more objective than others. They are not.

In fact it is a fallacy to think headphones can be reviewed objectively.

What you can do objectively is to to measure a few basic parameters, check if something is broken, and if it is not, you need to listen to it, which is what Amir does. He has a reference grade measurement rig so his measurements are comparable to Harman target. He also has listening training. And that is that. Maybe better qualified subjective assessments, but subjective assessments nonetheless.

In this review Amir "disqualifies" this headphone saying that he hears static (not clear at what level) and blames them on high frequency issues. Where is that in the measurement exactly, can you point out?

I think audio reviews with both measurements and subjective experience(s) are more thoughtful and objective than the usual reviews (which might be lacking methods, consistencies, self-consciousness, etc...). But I do think that for headphones, which has been described as "wild west" and standard-less by many, using only one component (measurement/listening experience) to conclude it as "the be-all and end-all" and treat it as the absolute verdict , might not be so accurate in many cases.
IMO since the headphones industry is a bit less standardized than IEMs (they've been hugging DF and Harman targets for quite some time now), Amir trying to apply some clear metrics is an idea in the good direction though.

Amir has a great measurement rig, a clear preference or standard (Harman), so if measurements are great, and the FR matches his preference/standard, he recommends it. I think it's really clear and consistent and honest, way more than the majority of reviewers are bold enough to do. So in that aspect I think Amir is doing much good for the community, but if you ask me should I trust any single review as gospel, or that any headphones measurement must be consistent at all times (even down to the atomic details like fixture positions, matching levels down to the exact numbers, etc....) then I don't think I can.

 

[Chagall]

Give them a little metal and a touch of wood and jack the price ten fold and they will happily pay it and rave about it in their snob circles. LOL

Your previous joke had no traction, this one is a bit lame also IMO.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

on a side note, does anyone know when was this headphones released? I've been fooling around with audio since 2018 or a little later, and even around that time I already heard about this and HE6. I'm curious if our forum measured any headphones from around that period, that measures significantly better than this.

 

[majingotan]

Around 2017

 

[Rhamnetin]

I don't think anyone ever claimed the Susvara was the king of anything, because of it's high pricepoint this headphone has always been tested in a very critical way. But I did my own research I found most trustable review sources (and with this I don't mean youtube) claiming this headphone until today is still considered in the top of the list. Like hasen't the Susvara been on the market forever? Extensively tested by many experts in the last 7 Years? So why does this "measurement problem" come up all of a sudden only in this forum in this topic? Why only here by 1 person?

1. 99% of reviews don't do any measurements
2. solderdude saw similar measurements previously
3. What are the qualifications of these "experts" you mention? Don't be so quick to throw around that term. Most of them just listen to the product, expecting it to sound incredible because it's $6k, then lo and behold it does sound good to them, and then they write all about it with superlatives.
4. The 4-5 KHz distortion looks fine at 94 dBSPL which would explain why most don't hear any issues there

It is true that the Susvara produces a sound that most people who have heard it (small group subject to confirmation bias) seem to enjoy, but it shouldn't be surprising that someone like Amir who pursues maximum accuracy and neutrality won't personally care for its sound. This is also far from the first time a popular headphone proves to be very colored in measurements.

Also, he rightfully brought the hammer down on it for performing like this at $6k. I don't think there's anything wrong with demanding perfection at such a ridiculous price point... realistically I think no headphone should be anywhere near $6k but I obviously don't have the right mindset for this product.

The only curious finding in this review for me is the static sound that was being produced.

I think it is a fallacy to believe that the headphone reviews Amir does are more objective than others. They are not.

In fact it is a fallacy to think headphones can be reviewed objectively.

What you can do objectively is to to measure a few basic parameters, check if something is broken, and if it is not, you need to listen to it, which is what Amir does. He has a reference grade measurement rig so his measurements are comparable to Harman target. He also has listening training. And that is that. Maybe better qualified subjective assessments, but subjective assessments nonetheless.

In this review Amir "disqualifies" this headphone saying that he hears static (not clear at what level) and blames them on high frequency issues. Where is that in the measurement exactly, can you point out?

Well, all the reviews with no measurements at all are certainly less objective, providing no real data. For me personally, I only pay attention to the measurements and I listen to the gear myself, since the only subjective impressions that matter are your own.

 

[anmpr1]

I can remember reading an early issue of The Audio Critic in the late 1970's where Peter Aczel did a survey of high end preamps. In it, the most expensive one retailed for $1800. It was roughly 3x as expensive as the next most expensive, and Aczel tore it to shreds because it didn;t do things like have an accurate RIAA curve or a moving coil step up device, and he just went nuts about that.

To keep it in historical perspective, Aczel criticized the $1800.00 Yamaha not because of its RIAA curve, which he didn't measure yet was likely spot on, but rather it's high price in comparison with other comparable products, its 'gimmicky' features (oscillator/pink noise generators), the lack of MC capability which you cited, although mostly because he didn't like its 'sound'. This was 1977, in his subjective days, days which he later disavowed as naive and unschooled.

However, it is perhaps interesting to contrast a preamp he did think was very good sounding. I'm talking about Andy Rappaport's PRE-1. Now, almost 50 years on, my guess is that no one today would take a PRE-1 over a Yamaha C-1, if they were given the chance, and both were in proper working order, something the Rappaport had difficulty with, even when new--at least according to actual consumer reports from the field.

As some others have commented, I don't get the expensive headphone thing. I read the reviews out of curiosity. The headphone/Benchmark combo results were certainly interesting.

If I had six large to spend on a headphone, I'd spend it on just about anything but...

 

[jody2k]

Well you can buy it for around 3700$ (refurbished) from site of hifiman itself with 3 year of warranty, which is still alot of money ofc.
Could be a good deal for those like me who really like the texture, timbre and transparency which makes them unique.

But let's be honest no is paying 6000$ for this headphone in 2023, you can make pretty good deals on their refurbished models straight from their website.

 

[617]

If you're defeated by the real estate market, buying expensive stuff you can use in an apartment makes sense. Especially if all you do is work at your desk.

The rise in headphones is completely explicable by this trend in my opinion.

This six grand would get you a top of the line Ascend Acoustic or a Revel F226Be.

I confess that I will never understand headphone culture. So I'll give sit on the side line and wait for the updated Benchmark measurements.