Help with choosing AVR?

[lovesound]

I am sure this question is not new... but I tried to research myself but got so confused. Hope you guys don't mind and give me some hint.
Before all, I have to share that when I went to cinema, event trying to pick best possible seat for sound, I don't really enjoy their audio system. Not sure because the cinema I went to is no good or ??? they said to be imax standard cinemas with lots of speakers around. I also went to a new fancy 4D cinema - I love the effect but the sound... i just don't see the deal compare to some 2000 pound setup (maybe I am not good to see the difference?) sometimes I found the cinema sounds are too lound and too "over" or broken in the details.


First, should I go brand new or 2nd hand? I am aware that there is a risk that the AVR die - and if they die, hard to fix? (is it true?)
I had 2 AVR in the past, all entry-level from Denon and Pioneer. I got the Denon new but it broke - and the warranty did not accept to fix it because they said I play music too loud - well well.. what can I say. They took all speakers and AVR and said to help me to dispose of them. well, I was silly enough to believe them and then I notice that you can always sell them broken on eBay... (sorry out of the topic but I can believe they did that to me). I got the pioneer later, old but never had issue.

I am more to 2nd hand as we have a low budget of 500-700 British pound for AVR and speakers.
Should I go really old? like around 10 years. Or something newer, 2-3 years old for the AVR.

I see the measuring chart from the admin - great collection. But can I ask to what level is "enough" or acceptable for home theater?

Speakers wise, I normally got lucky with them 2nd hand so I will probably grab whatever I found around

thank you all

 

[peng]

I am sure this question is not new... but I tried to research myself but got so confused. Hope you guys don't mind and give me some hint.
Before all, I have to share that when I went to cinema, event trying to pick best possible seat for sound, I don't really enjoy their audio system. Not sure because the cinema I went to is no good or ??? they said to be imax standard cinemas with lots of speakers around. I also went to a new fancy 4D cinema - I love the effect but the sound... i just don't see the deal compare to some 2000 pound setup (maybe I am not good to see the difference?) sometimes I found the cinema sounds are too lound and too "over" or broken in the details.


First, should I go brand new or 2nd hand? I am aware that there is a risk that the AVR die - and if they die, hard to fix? (is it true?)
I had 2 AVR in the past, all entry-level from Denon and Pioneer. I got the Denon new but it broke - and the warranty did not accept to fix it because they said I play music too loud - well well.. what can I say. They took all speakers and AVR and said to help me to dispose of them. well, I was silly enough to believe them and then I notice that you can always sell them broken on eBay... (sorry out of the topic but I can believe they did that to me). I got the pioneer later, old but never had issue.

I am more to 2nd hand as we have a low budget of 500-700 British pound for AVR and speakers.
Should I go really old? like around 10 years. Or something newer, 2-3 years old for the AVR.

I see the measuring chart from the admin - great collection. But can I ask to what level is "enough" or acceptable for home theater?

Speakers wise, I normally got lucky with them 2nd hand so I will probably grab whatever I found around

thank you all

Since you had one Denon broke and was told you played it too loud so before I suggest used AVR, I would like to know the following:

- your furthest seating position from the front left or right speaker.
- the speaker you have in mind, need to know the specs especially the nominal impedance and sensitivity in the dB/2.83V/1m format.
- will you be getting a 2 channel system, or a surround sound system such as 5.1 that would include a subwoofer?
- how loud do you like to listen to, say relative to that in a cinema, would it be 1/4, 1/2, or near 100% as loud? Typically we would ask how loud in terms of dB, and that would help a lot if you could, but if not, just a guessimate in terms of 1/4, 1/2.... would still be helpful

With the information, we can then estimate how much "power" your potential AVR needs to deliver, without getting damaged prematurely. Is your 700 British pound budget flexible, for two channel, it may be okay if you buy used even if you just add a good subwoofer in order to do 2.1, it would be tough.

 

[lovesound]

hi Peng,
Thank you for such a detailed reply.
I tried to draw and found an online tool. Have a look

-we have one row of the sofa, which is 2.9m from the screen - like the picture
-i would love to push to 5.1 system

-do you mean my current speakers? I have a pair of
EPOS ACOUSTICS M12.2 FLOORSTANDING SPEAKERS
Power Handling: 120 Watt
Frequency Response: 60 Hz - 20 kHz
Impedance: 8 Ohm nominal
Sensitivity: 87dB/1W/1m
Amplifier Compatibility: 25 - 150 Watt

I plan to use them as front speakers (using the pre-out port to the amplifier I already have for music).


-speaker in mind, for the low budget, I plan to get one of these old speakers as the rear speakers.
I have never tried them but saw them in a local used shop:

Yamaha NS 351 bass 20
This is what I found about this:

YAMAHA NS-351の仕様 ヤマハ

audio-heritage.jp

Playback frequency band	55Hz-20kHz
Crossover frequency	2kHz, 12dB / oct
Output sound pressure level	91dB / W / m
Impedance	8Ω
Maximum allowable input	50W

or a bit higher power: (Do I need high power for the rear speakers?)
ONKYO D-500 Liverpool

ONKYO D-500 Liverpool Specifications Onkyo / Onkyo

Play frequency band	35Hz - 45000Hz
The maximum input	180W(EIAJ)
Impedance	6ohm
Output sound pressure	90dB/W/m

about how loud, I have to say I am a bit sensitive to sound and cant handle the loud volume. I think the reason my Denon AVR brokes is because I tried to play music in it and go to another room to listen... silly me. In my set for music,
Musical Fidelity f2 pre and power amp, with the EPOS ACOUSTICS M12.2, I never use more than 30% volume.

Thank you so much again

 

[peng]

hi Peng,
Thank you for such a detailed reply.
I tried to draw and found an online tool. Have a look
View attachment 190965

-we have one row of the sofa, which is 2.9m from the screen - like the picture
-i would love to push to 5.1 system

-do you mean my current speakers? I have a pair of
EPOS ACOUSTICS M12.2 FLOORSTANDING SPEAKERS
Power Handling: 120 Watt
Frequency Response: 60 Hz - 20 kHz
Impedance: 8 Ohm nominal
Sensitivity: 87dB/1W/1m
Amplifier Compatibility: 25 - 150 Watt

I plan to use them as front speakers (using the pre-out port to the amplifier I already have for music).


-speaker in mind, for the low budget, I plan to get one of these old speakers as the rear speakers.
I have never tried them but saw them in a local used shop:

Yamaha NS 351 bass 20
This is what I found about this:

YAMAHA NS-351の仕様 ヤマハ

audio-heritage.jp

Playback frequency band	55Hz-20kHz
Crossover frequency	2kHz, 12dB / oct
Output sound pressure level	91dB / W / m
Impedance	8Ω
Maximum allowable input	50W

or a bit higher power: (Do I need high power for the rear speakers?)
ONKYO D-500 Liverpool

ONKYO D-500 Liverpool Specifications Onkyo / Onkyo

Play frequency band	35Hz - 45000Hz
The maximum input	180W(EIAJ)
Impedance	6ohm
Output sound pressure	90dB/W/m

about how loud, I have to say I am a bit sensitive to sound and cant handle the loud volume. I think the reason my Denon AVR brokes is because I tried to play music in it and go to another room to listen... silly me. In my set for music,
Musical Fidelity f2 pre and power amp, with the EPOS ACOUSTICS M12.2, I never use more than 30% volume.

Thank you so much again

Wow, that's a nice hometheater room.

I would look for something rated for 100 WPC into 8 Ohms.

Here are some that can do the job for you:

Accessories4less: High End Audio at Low End Prices!

www.accessories4less.com

YAMAHA RX-V6A 7.2-Ch x 100 Watts 8K A/V Receiver

Yamaha Factory Refurbished

www.accessories4less.com

Those are NA sites, if you are in Europe you would have to so some search yourself

For speakers, your plan of using what you have now is a good idea, unless you can stretch your budget. Other than that I would hope someone else can come up with more viable options.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

Question 1: If you have money, always a brand new is a better choice. Denon seems to be the ASR choice. But prices are very high theses days, compared with 2019, for example. I bought an used Yamaha HTR 7065 and did not have any issues. It has all you need from an AV receiver, but Atmos. US$ 450.00 on ebay or even cheaper (bought mine in 2020 for US$ 180.00, without remote control and microphone).

In any case, consider that a sole AV receiver might not be able to "rock the boat" on large rooms. For rooms to 12 to 16 quare meters, a 7065 is more than enough.

 

[lovesound]

Wow, that's a nice hometheater room.

I would look for something rated for 100 WPC into 8 Ohms.

Here are some that can do the job for you:

Accessories4less: High End Audio at Low End Prices!

www.accessories4less.com

YAMAHA RX-V6A 7.2-Ch x 100 Watts 8K A/V Receiver

Yamaha Factory Refurbished

www.accessories4less.com

Those are NA sites, if you are in Europe you would have to so some search yourself

For speakers, your plan of using what you have now is a good idea, unless you can stretch your budget. Other than that I would hope someone else can come up with more viable options.

thank u . yes, it looks like i better to get a good avr with ATMOS and then try to grab some old speakers around is it similar to getting new dac? with old hifi system

 

[lovesound]

Question 1: If you have money, always a brand new is a better choice. Denon seems to be the ASR choice. But prices are very high theses days, compared with 2019, for example. I bought an used Yamaha HTR 7065 and did not have any issues. It has all you need from an AV receiver, but Atmos. US$ 450.00 on ebay or even cheaper (bought mine in 2020 for US$ 180.00, without remote control and microphone).

In any case, consider that a sole AV receiver might not be able to "rock the boat" on large rooms. For rooms to 12 to 16 quare meters, a 7065 is more than enough.

thank u. i will look in the Yamaha one. i hear that the Yamaha HTR 7065 and RX-V6A is quite decent for the money.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

thank u . yes, it looks like i better to get a good avr with ATMOS and then try to grab some old speakers around is it similar to getting new dac? with old hifi system

If you wish, like me, a rational set both to HT and stereo, Sansui have affordable and good stereo integrated amplifiers, like Au-217 or 317 models (of course, there are many others, but I miss my Sansui AU 217 even having two others). The difference of music sound of an AV receiver and these amplifiers are huge. AV receivers plays musics sounding like MP3 files. Compressed. A good amplifier or integrated amplifier allows the music breath. For my secondary set, I have a Mac Mini 2011+Tidal+Audirvana, a Topping E50DAC and a Sansui A-α7 (https://audio-heritage.jp/SANSUI/amp/a-alpha7.html). Great and refined sound for less than US$ 800.00. I found gains on using a Wireworld Equinox 8 RCA interconnect cables on this set. Botton line: super happy with less than one grant+speakers.

 

[lovesound]

th

If you wish, like me, a rational set both to HT and stereo, Sansui have affordable and good stereo integrated amplifiers, like Au-217 or 317 models (of course, there are many others, but I miss my Sansui AU 217 even having two others). The difference of music sound of an AV receiver and these amplifiers are huge. AV receivers plays musics sounding like MP3 files. Compressed. A good amplifier or integrated amplifier allows the music breath. For my secondary set, I have a Mac Mini 2011+Tidal+Audirvana, a Topping E50DAC and a Sansui A-α7 (https://audio-heritage.jp/SANSUI/amp/a-alpha7.html). Great and refined sound for less than US$ 800.00. I found gains on using a Wireworld Equinox 8 RCA interconnect cables on this set. Botton line: super happy with less than one grant+speakers.

thanks. i actually using toppic as DAC as well for the music set

 

[dlaloum]

One warning with used AVR's .... from someone who has had 2 AVR's "release their magic smoke" over the last 12 years...

Many AVR's made in the 2008 to 2012 period suffered from overheating HDMI circuits - and tended to blow up their HDMI boards - Onkyo/Integra had a particularly bad run as it was exacerbated by a bad batch of capacitors - but the problem was pretty much universal.

Many AVR's in the 2012 to 2015 period have had issues with the DTS chip made by TI... this was an acknowledged manufacturing flaw - pretty much all the manufacturers provided replacement boards gratis up to around 2018... so a form of "extended warranty" - if you were one of the lucky ones who didn't experience the problem.... then your AVR has an issue which is bound to raise its head at some point (and yes, mine had the DTS chip fail mid last year)

All of which is to say: I would not purchase an AVR that is older than 2016 (manufactured in 2016 or later.... not purchased 2016, as there was plenty of older stock at that time)

Having said all that - what with people starting to replace their HDMI 1.4 AVR's with the new HDMI 2.1 AVR's capable of 4K - there could be bargains to be found within the 2016 to 2019 age bracket.....

Some of the older ones (2012 to 2015) might also be OK IF you know for sure that their DTS chips/board has been replaced/fixed.

 

[dlaloum]

With regards to picking an AVR... Based on your speakers, and aiming for reference level SPL (85db @ -20.... 105db @0) - you need approximately a 120W amp - Assuming that the 120W would be for headroom peaks... as long as your chosen amp can do more than 130W peak output into 8ohms and can provide more than say 75W continuous, you should be fine! (that means almost any AVR would meet the criteria - the Epos are not hard to drive!)

84db = 1W
96db = 16W
105db = 128W
108db = 256W
111db = 512W

(Calculation based on 87db/w, 2 speakers =+3db, double distance to 2m = -6db)

 

[dlaloum]

Having said all that - the single thing that has had the biggest impact on sound quality in my own system (other than the speakers I have chosen), is Dirac Live RoomEQ.

But a Dirac enabled AVR may be outside the target price bracket.

In my own system I found the other major RoomEQ system (Audyssey XT32) to be disappointing... (many swear by it)
Yamahas room EQ system has a poor reputation - particularly in the bass - not in the same league as Audyssey & Dirac
Pioneer MCACC / Onkyo-Integra AccuEQ - seem to be reasonable by reputation - - not in the same league as Audyssey & Dirac

 

[lovesound]

Dear all
Thanks for such detailed

I am wondering should i push for a brand new avt with warranty? I found
denon x2400h for sale brand new
Is it anh better than the old denon or yamaha? It cost around £400

It sounds like have enough like power and doby atmos.

But.. I would the old one more value?
It may be different this time due to the fact that cinema audio is more tech updated? Like doby atmos?

Regards

 

[lovesound]

One warning with used AVR's .... from someone who has had 2 AVR's "release their magic smoke" over the last 12 years...

Many AVR's made in the 2008 to 2012 period suffered from overheating HDMI circuits - and tended to blow up their HDMI boards - Onkyo/Integra had a particularly bad run as it was exacerbated by a bad batch of capacitors - but the problem was pretty much universal.

Many AVR's in the 2012 to 2015 period have had issues with the DTS chip made by TI... this was an acknowledged manufacturing flaw - pretty much all the manufacturers provided replacement boards gratis up to around 2018... so a form of "extended warranty" - if you were one of the lucky ones who didn't experience the problem.... then your AVR has an issue which is bound to raise its head at some point (and yes, mine had the DTS chip fail mid last year)

All of which is to say: I would not purchase an AVR that is older than 2016 (manufactured in 2016 or later.... not purchased 2016, as there was plenty of older stock at that time)

Having said all that - what with people starting to replace their HDMI 1.4 AVR's with the new HDMI 2.1 AVR's capable of 4K - there could be bargains to be found within the 2016 to 2019 age bracket.....

Some of the older ones (2012 to 2015) might also be OK IF you know for sure that their DTS chips/board has been replaced/fixed.

Thank u. Will look for after 2016.. Or considering brand new

 

[lovesound]

Wow, that's a nice hometheater room.

I would look for something rated for 100 WPC into 8 Ohms.

Here are some that can do the job for you:

Accessories4less: High End Audio at Low End Prices!

www.accessories4less.com

YAMAHA RX-V6A 7.2-Ch x 100 Watts 8K A/V Receiver

Yamaha Factory Refurbished

www.accessories4less.com

Those are NA sites, if you are in Europe you would have to so some search yourself

For speakers, your plan of using what you have now is a good idea, unless you can stretch your budget. Other than that I would hope someone else can come up with more viable options.

I found the x2400h. Is it still alright? I can get it brand new for 530 usd

 

[peng]

I found the x2400h. Is it still alright? I can get it brand new for 530 usd

It is a little old, so try to see if you can find on that comes with a warranty, or a 30-days return window sort of deal. In the US, AC4L often would warranty on used/refurbished units. Here's an example, but if you want one you have to be quick:

Accessories4less: High End Audio at Low End Prices!

www.accessories4less.com

The AVR-X2400H is very comparable to the X2600H, except it would not have all the latest features.

 

[lovesound]

It is a little old, so try to see if you can find on that comes with a warranty, or a 30-days return window sort of deal. In the US, AC4L often would warranty on used/refurbished units. Here's an example, but if you want one you have to be quick:

Accessories4less: High End Audio at Low End Prices!

www.accessories4less.com

The AVR-X2400H is very comparable to the X2600H, except it would not have all the latest features.

just wonder about that website, accessories4less are they any good?
this is above our budget but seem very good deal

YAMAHA RX-A1080 7.2-Ch x 110 Watts A/V Receiver

Yamaha Factory Refurbished

www.accessories4less.com

 

[peng]

just wonder about that website, accessories4less are they any good?
this is above our budget but seem very good deal

YAMAHA RX-A1080 7.2-Ch x 110 Watts A/V Receiver

Yamaha Factory Refurbished

www.accessories4less.com

I always buy new so I am not the right person to ask. Hopefully someone will have the answers for you.

 

[lovesound]

I always buy new so I am not the right person to ask. Hopefully someone will have the answers for you.

Yes.. we will go new
We narrow to Denon 2700h or the bigger 3700H.
As we spend quite a bit on AVR, we will use old speakers to fill up the atmos setup.

So, If we go for 2700h, we don't have the pre-out so we can not use the current music setup as front speakers.
Is it worth going for 3700H?
is it worth getting aVR with pre-out to connect to the current music setup?

 

[dlaloum]

Ultimately that depends on your speakers - if your speakers are demanding, and you have invested in a suitable amp to get the best from them, then you probably should keep using it that way - The AVR's have decent amps, but typically run out of current with low impedance, difficult loads.

The advantage of the 3700 is that it also has Audyssey XT32 rather than just XT...

It can be tuned more precisely/effectively for RoomEQ - that alone might make it worth it for you, with the pre-outs being a bonus