Help to interprete this graphics

[Amateur2020]

Hello,
I was searching for help and I founf this very interesting page. The ting is that I have a system based in an amplifier NAD C316BEE + CD reader NAD C516BEE with a DBX Driverack PA2 for room correction in a 16 m2 room and I am trying to decide between to pair of loudspeakers:
set 1: 2 x DALI Zensor 5 + 2 x MIVOC hype 10g2 subwoofwrs
set 2: Dynavoice DF-8
When I pass the autoEq get this graphics (which I think I do not interprete OK)
the green line is the result of the EQ
the grey line is the room effect
the white line is the parametric EQ
the orange flat line is the target

Set 1

Set 2

Well, in principle seem to be very similar but set 1 sounds much better and bass is more deep. According to specificatios DF-8 go to 23 Hz. and should be equals Maybe the room is too small.
The thing is that I am un a triangle of about 2 m, and usually I listen music at about 75 dB or so.
I prefer set 2 because is less space.

The question is if regarding those graphics, I do not trust my ears to do this, do you think there is something to change in order to improve the sound.
Thank you very much.
Best regards,

 

[MZKM]

EQ does not make all well, as some speakers are more EQ'able, by this I mean the amount of correction needed is not severe; boosting dips means more wattage which the speaker can't handle, sharp filters in the treble can cause audible issues, etc.

EQ also doesn't alter the off-axis, which is where most of the sound we hear comes from.

EQ is great at altering tonal balance and dealing with some room modes; but a speaker with poor directivity cannot be easily salvaged.

 

[Amateur2020]

Thank you for answering. Maybe the DALIs have more directivity than the Dynavoice. I will try to toe them.

 

[TimW]

The DALIs seem to be much more neutral requiring less EQ above the Schroeder frequency. This is a good thing since, as @MZKM has alluded to, EQ can be detrimental if it tries to correct issues that only exist on-axis. I would suggest limiting the dbx correction filters to 200-300 Hz if you can. Then compare the speakers again. So far the DALIs seem to measure better and if they sound much better to you then they are probably the better option. Also I think dual subs is a better option than no subs.

 

[Amateur2020]

Thank you TimW. I don't know how much is the Schroeder frequency, but I can make a new setting limitated to 300 Hz down. How do you know that DALI measure better with the graphics because they seem almost the same for me.

 

[TimW]

Thank you TimW. I don't know how much is the Schroeder frequency, but I can make a new setting limitated to 300 Hz down. How do you know that DALI measure better with the graphics because they seem almost the same for me.

The grey Room line looks to be the actual measurement of the speakers in your room. If you look at the white EQ line you see the corrective parametric filters that the dbx is applying to try to correct that grey line. The set 1 (DALI) has only 3 small peaks in its response above 200 Hz and these are corrected with shallow 2-3 db EQ cuts. The set 2 (Dynavoice) has 5 EQ adjustments above 200 Hz, including 2 boosts which are worse than cuts. And these adjustments are much larger (up to 5 db) because the natural FR of these speakers is so far from flat. That nearly 6 db peak between 500 Hz and 1 KHz is going to be very audible when you listen without the EQ corrections. And that significant drop after 10 KHZ is no good either.

 

[Amateur2020]

Hmmm, yes, very interesting. Thanks TimW. Maybe also is the effect of the 2 subs like you said.

 

[Amateur2020]

Do you have any suggestion about why in both RTAs there is -10 dB drop at 20 Hz and about -5 dB in 25 Hz?, could it be because the room size?

 

[TimW]

Hmmm, yes, very interesting. Thanks TimW. Maybe also is the effect of the 2 subs like you said.

Well the subwoofers should have very little affect on the FR above 200 Hz. The Dynavoice DF-8 just doesn't seem to have a very smooth FR.

Do you have any suggestion about why in both RTAs there is -10 dB drop at 20 Hz and about -5 dB in 25 Hz?, could it be because the room size?

The room will have a large effect in this frequency region but I'm not sure how room size correlates. My guess is that both the MIVOC subwoofers and the Dynavoice speakers just have similar low frequency extension. The nice thing about the subwoofers is that you can move them around and find a spot where they might have better extension and a smoother response.

 

[Amateur2020]

Thanks again TimW. So this means the only way I have to improve the RTA in 20 and 25 Hz is moving the subs?

 

[Amateur2020]

In any case, do you connsider set 1 RTA is at least more or less good?.
Thank you

 

[Hipper]

Speaker and listening position have a very big impact on what you hear. With any speaker you can use measurements to find the best locations. A simple way to show this is to notice the difference when you move the microphone a bit - the results can change quite a bit. It is certainly best to concentrate on the 0-300Hz range when doing this as this area of the frequency response as the hardest and most important to get right.

I would think you should use this idea to find the best locations for each set of speakers (using no EQ), then compare the results. Also have a good listen to both sets when you've got their best locations. Having a set of subwoofers to move about should make it easier to get a better 0-300Hz response.

The best way to use EQ is not to correct poor speakers or poor positioning but to complete the job after you've done your best in other areas (positioning, and, if you can, room treatment).

Ultimately though do not get so obsessed with getting the perfect set of measurements. Measuring is just a useful tool to find a better listening experience.

Another point someone has mentioned: if you listen on your own, using EQ to get the best sound at your one listening position can work, but trying to get it right for multiple seats (usually using measurements from different positions) is more of a compromise - it should be good but not likely the best.

 

[Amateur2020]

Thank you Hipper. The thing is I have almost no options to try different locations for the speakers that's why I trust in EQ. My actual set is set 1 Zensor 5 + Mivos. To reduce space I tried with the DF-8 because they have 8" woofers and in theory they reach 23 Hz down. But with the graphics I see zensor are better. Also I lik emore the sound. But I am not sure I do something wrong. That's why I ask for help to get a right interpretation of the graphics which are my only tool. What I still not understand is why I get this poor results in 20 and 25 Hz.
As you are all more experienced, do you think DBX is not powerful enough and I should try another devive like Behringer DEQ2496?
Thanks again.

 

[TimW]

I think you are expecting too much from these speakers. Getting flat extension down to 20 Hz is not easy and usually requires a large subwoofer. Even cheap 12" subs usually can't reach that low and 8" woofers are much less likely to be able to do it. Besides that, there really isn't much musical information that low. Only movie soundtracks would benefit from solid response below 30 Hz and even then you're not missing much. If you really need that bottom octave then you'll have to get a big high performance subwoofer.

 

[Amateur2020]

Thanks again. I only try my best with the actual set. I have already read in a thread called Stereo Bass using subwoofers that using mono management is more effective. Actually I have configured stereo subs management. I thought it was better idea. I will test it in the next days. Maybe I get an improvement.

 

[Amateur2020]

Hello again,
As we are in lockdown I made some tests following your suggestions and concentrating EQ below 300 Hz by moving the PEQs.
I also tried another target curve "recommended PA" which I prefer better tan the flat one.

My hall is width 5,5 m x depth 3,5 m x height 2,5 m.
Speakers are in the right side of the 5,5 m wall, separated 1,70 m between them and 0,5 m from the 3,5 m lateral wall and 0,3 m from the 5,5 m wall. The floorstanders are mounted over the subwoofers.
Speakers are:

• 2 x DALI Zensor 5 (43 Hz a 20 kHz ± 3 dB)
• 2 x MIVOC hype 10g2 ( 20 -180 Hz, I don't know the gain)

Crossover is at 53 Hz and with 24 dB Linkwitz ramps.

The graphic:

1. the preferred, “recommended PA "
   
   

I think the green line (EQ) follows the orange (target) about ± 3 dB and I thought this would be good enough.

The thing is now I am not so happy with the sound but I am not able to improve anymore.

Maybe I reached the top of DBX PA2 performance and next step would be:
1. acoustic treatment of the hall, which is not possible
2. try DIRAC and minidsp or DENON AVR 3600 with Dirac (but I think is a wate of AVR)
3. try Lyngdorf TDAI 1120 with roomperfect (about 2.000 €)
4.try DENON with Odyssey XT32, but again is a waste of AVR

Do you have any suggestions of how to improve the sound?.

Thank you very much for helping a locked down in search of the optimum sound

 

[Amateur2020]

Hello,
Any idea?, I am in a dead end and don't know which next step to do.
Thank you.

 

[QMuse]

The graphic:

1. the preferred, “recommended PA "
   View attachment 60647

I think the green line (EQ) follows the orange (target) about ± 3 dB and I thought this would be good enough.

The thing is now I am not so happy with the sound but I am not able to improve anymore.

I recommend you take measurement with REW to check if actual speaker's response is similar to predicted (green line).

Can you describe in more detail what part of the sound you're not happy with?

 

[Hipper]

Firstly, the Dali Zensor 5 speakers look like floorstanders. It doesn't seem to me a good idea to put them on top of the subwoofers because they are designed to sound best on the floor. You will for example be raising the tweeters higher then your ears which will effect how they sound.

And secondly, from the way you describe how the speakers are placed, it seems they are not symmetrically positioned. Is that right? Perhaps you could show us a plan of your room? It's usually best if you could get the speakers placed in the room symmetrically, that is, both the same distance from all the walls. That way they both behave the same - reflections off walls will be the same for example. I appreciate you said you 'have almost no options to try different locations for the speakers'.

One of the advantages of using subwoofers is that you can place them in other places in the room that a full range speaker cannot be placed. That is definitely helpful for getting bass right leaving less work for DSP/EQ.

There are many suggested target curves. The most favoured seems to be a gentle slope from bass down to treble of around 3-6dB. Here's a thread on the subject but there are others:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ut-room-curve-targets-room-eq-and-more.10950/

They are just guides and in the end it is what you like that counts.

I'm not familiar with the DBX PA2 but I use a Behringer DEQ2496 which seems broadly similar. These days I don't use it for measuring but just to implement the filters. I use Room EQ Wizard (REW) for measuring. I've found this a better way of doing things.

What I would suggest is that instead of looking to spend more money on equipment, you firstly try a few different target curves. If that doesn't satisfy you then instead of the DBX doing the measurement, try REW to measure and generate the filters, then add them manually to the DBX. It's not clear to me if you can manually alter the PEQs on the DBX (on my Behringer I can manually adjust ten PEQs plus, like your DBX, 31 GEQ bands). Again just concentrate to start with on the 0-300Hz range.

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

It takes a lot of learning but there's plenty of help about.

 

[QMuse]

Firstly, the Dali Zensor 5 speakers look like floorstanders. It doesn't seem to me a good idea to put them on top of the subwoofers because they are designed to sound best on the floor. You will for example be raising the tweeters higher then your ears which will effect how they sound.

And secondly, from the way you describe how the speakers are placed, it seems they are not symmetrically positioned. Is that right? Perhaps you could show us a plan of your room? It's usually best if you could get the speakers placed in the room symmetrically, that is, both the same distance from all the walls. That way they both behave the same - reflections off walls will be the same for example. I appreciate you said you 'have almost no options to try different locations for the speakers'.

One of the advantages of using subwoofers is that you can place them in other places in the room that a full range speaker cannot be placed. That is definitely helpful for getting bass right leaving less work for DSP/EQ.

There are many suggested target curves. The most favoured seems to be a gentle slope from bass down to treble of around 3-6dB. Here's a thread on the subject but there are others:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ut-room-curve-targets-room-eq-and-more.10950/

They are just guides and in the end it is what you like that counts.

I'm not familiar with the DBX PA2 but I use a Behringer DEQ2496 which seems broadly similar. These days I don't use it for measuring but just to implement the filters. I use Room EQ Wizard (REW) for measuring. I've found this a better way of doing things.

What I would suggest is that instead of looking to spend more money on equipment, you firstly try a few different target curves. If that doesn't satisfy you then instead of the DBX doing the measurement, try REW to measure and generate the filters, then add them manually to the DBX. It's not clear to me if you can manually alter the PEQs on the DBX (on my Behringer I can manually adjust ten PEQs plus, like your DBX, 31 GEQ bands). Again just concentrate to start with on the 0-300Hz range.

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

It takes a lot of learning but there's plenty of help about.

While I agree with pretty much everything you said IMHO opinion that target curve he set shouldn't sound bad at all. It may be too bright for someone's taste but it shouldn't sound "bad".