Grey market cameras

[maverickronin]

But my real guess is that the warranty situation is simply the means to protect the established importer's territory. There used to be a thriving grey market with high-end audio gear from Japan. Bypass the dealer, and importer. But now, with the exception of perhaps phono cartridges, where they can't, manufacturers make sure locally sourced gear is specific to local electricity. It used to be that manufacturers built with multi voltage capability, and put a selector switch on the back. I don't think it's been that way for decades.

Yeah, the real reason is the usual anti-consumer BS, but it's at least more defensible with mains powered gear used at home. Even here, I don't think many people take their Accuphases on vacation with them...

 

[bravomail]

It is called "market segmentation" and manufacturers love playing it!
It creates this "bought overseas - then service it overseas!" nonsense.
At the end though, with internet and ebay, we, as consumers, can take advantage of their market segmentation - we can buy their cameras much cheaper. I remember seeing new Nikon D750 under $1000 in HK when it was much higher in official US stores. So, r u willing to risk and exploit the system?

 

[Ron Texas]

Nikon has 2 US service centers. Nobody else is authorized to repair Nikon photographic equipment. The Nikon service centers will not repair gray market equipment. There used to be authorized third party repair shops, but Nikon will no longer sell them parts. For some of the more popular cameras and lenses there may be parts available at these third-party repair shops for a while. For the newest camera models there are probably no parts.

 

[JJB70]

It is called "market segmentation" and manufacturers love playing it!
It creates this "bought overseas - then service it overseas!" nonsense.
At the end though, with internet and ebay, we, as consumers, can take advantage of their market segmentation - we can buy their cameras much cheaper. I remember seeing new Nikon D750 under $1000 in HK when it was much higher in official US stores. So, r u willing to risk and exploit the system?

The manufacturers are trying to both protect their local distributors and local pricing and also kill the grey market.
The problem as a consumer is that even if buying from an AD these policies could cause serious problems. The argument is that if your camera breaks oversea you won't have time to use local repair services, but that overseas visits are limited to 1 - 2 weeks. In my youth I used to spend quite long periods overseas when my employer was building new ships in Asia and used to take my camera gear with me. And I work in an industry where international assignments and moving to other countries for the long term is not unusual. So it's not about exploiting the system to save money for some people, it's a question of if I buy a camera and move somewhere will I still be able to get the thing serviced and repaired without having to go through the hoops of sending it around the world (at my expense)?
The manufacturer and AD attitude to the grey market annoys me a little too. Where do grey market goods come from? I don't know what it's like now but a friend owned a jewelry shop in my home city many years ago. He had the local dealership for several watch brands at that time and had to sell a certain amount of watches. If he met targets he maintained his AD status and received financial payments, if he fell below he risked losing the dealership for brands. So what happened if a particular watch bombed which the manufacturer wanted to move or if he had a bad month generally is he'd register the sales (sell stock to himself), then sell them to non-ADs. Everyone was happy, the manufacturer and distributor keep figures up, the AD keeps their bonus and dealership, the non-AD shop gets new stock of current models to sell and a consumer gets a bargain. Everyone knew what was going on, but then the manufacturers would start climbing on high horses over the grey market.

 

[JJB70]

Nikon has 2 US service centers. Nobody else is authorized to repair Nikon photographic equipment. The Nikon service centers will not repair gray market equipment. There used to be authorized third party repair shops, but Nikon will no longer sell them parts. For some of the more popular cameras and lenses there may be parts available at these third-party repair shops for a while. For the newest camera models there are probably no parts.

I was actually pretty impressed with the Nikon Z cameras, but the fact that they won't offer a simple yes to the question of whether or not they will do paid service and repair work to a camera bought from an overseas AD means I won't be touching them.

 

[0bs3rv3r]

Where do grey market goods come from? I don't know what it's like now but a friend owned a jewelry shop in my home city many years ago. He had the local dealership for several watch brands at that time and had to sell a certain amount of watches. If he met targets he maintained his AD status and received financial payments, if he fell below he risked losing the dealership for brands. So what happened if a particular watch bombed which the manufacturer wanted to move or if he had a bad month generally is he'd register the sales (sell stock to himself), then sell them to non-ADs. Everyone was happy, the manufacturer and distributor keep figures up, the AD keeps their bonus and dealership, the non-AD shop gets new stock of current models to sell and a consumer gets a bargain. Everyone knew what was going on, but then the manufacturers would start climbing on high horses over the grey market.

The grey market also exists due to some ADs in some countries charging too much (way above the exchange rate and shipping costs and a reasonable mark up for local support etc). You can often buy the same item from an dealer overseas, pay the shipping and still get it much cheaper.

 

[LTig]

The grey market also exists due to some ADs in some countries charging too much (way above the exchange rate and shipping costs and a reasonable mark up for local support etc). You can often buy the same item from an dealer overseas, pay the shipping and still get it much cheaper.

It's even worse sometimes. Buying a bigger pair of Maggies (3.x) around 2004 was so expensive in Germany that you could fly to the US, make 3 weeks vacation and return with the Maggies in your luggage. AFAIK the same with Mark Levinson amps.

 

[Ron Texas]

It's even worse sometimes. Buying a bigger pair of Maggies (3.x) around 2004 was so expensive in Germany that you could fly to the US, make 3 weeks vacation and return with the Maggies in your luggage. AFAIK the same with Mark Levinson amps.

It would take a big suitcase.

 

[LTig]

It would take a big suitcase.

Not bigger than my properly packed recumbent travel bike ...

 

[Offler]

When I got into digital photography and there was a need for at least some reliability, I simply got myself 2nd body compatible with all my lenses (Olympus and M.Zuiko). I can use local shop to send the camera to Olympus to get it serviced or repaired...

IF there would be a problem with repairs of any of the Olympus cameras, I would simply opt for a different brand.

 

[JJB70]

At one time it was pretty normal to have a second body, not just to have a stand by back-up but also if you wanted to mix films. I used a Contax RTS3 and had a Yashica FX-D body that was my first SLR in the mid 80's. The Yashica FX-D was a very under rated camera, it was excellent in its day but always existed in the shadows of Pentax, Canon, Minolta, Olympus and Nikon.

 

[restorer-john]

Personally I think it's just ridiculous that a camera, designed for taking on holidays all around the world has restrictions placed on warranty service regardless of where it was bought.

I grew up in a world where international warranties were the norm. On cameras, radios, electric shavers and HiFi. Sony ES was serviceable in any country and came in the box with a 3 year international warranty complete with the contact listings and addresses for all their main service centres across the world.

I've got around 16 DSLRs of both Nikon and Canon, beween 5 and 14 years old. No failures in any of them. I had one Olympus micro 4/3 kit where the camera died, but I didn't like it anyway, so no great loss.

My theory is the more you have, the loss of one or two doesn't matter. It also spreads the wear.

 

[restorer-john]

I used a Contax RTS3 and had a Yashica FX-D body that was my first SLR in the mid 80's.

My first SLR was the Yashica 230AF in about 1987. It got stolen in about 1992 in a break in, but the idiot* left the lenses and took the body. It was discontinued and it took me a while to find a 2nd hand body. By then I'd moved on to Canon (EOS-650 and EOS-600). I've still got the lenses and body someplace.

*the burglar made the mistake of stealing about 150 of my CDs at the time (they were valuable on the 2nd hand market then). I knew my CDs inside out, every single one of them. It took me about a week of scouring pawnbrokers and 2nd hand shops before I came across a small number of my actual CDs. Cut along story short, I was able to provide a link the Police were unable obtain, and they were able to be at the next place he went to sell stolen gear with an extensive detailed list linking my CDs (and other things) to my break-in. A key piece of evidence was a Christmas gift tag in one of the CD books which I described where it would be and what it said. He had been doing 20 break-ins each day to feed a rampant drug habit.

I remember the evidence floor where I went to retrieve my stuff. I've never seen anything like it. So much loot.

He did 5 years in jail. Moral: Don't ever steal John's music.

The best thing of course was I was able to get back the most important discs to me. Like all the very first discs I ever bought, some very rare imports etc. Nothing was damaged either.

 

[JJB70]

The grey market also exists due to some ADs in some countries charging too much (way above the exchange rate and shipping costs and a reasonable mark up for local support etc). You can often buy the same item from an dealer overseas, pay the shipping and still get it much cheaper.

The AD issue is strange because some distributors make it a condition of holding AD status that there can be no oversea web/mail sales. Such sales could indeed be grey market in the eyes of distributors. However if you buy from an AD while on holiday or otherwise visiting then you have bought from an AD and I can't see how it could be considered grey market. The question is how would a distributor know the difference? People go on holiday, work overseas, move home etc. If the approach is that anything bought overseas is grey market if it ever needs a non-warranty service or repair then it is a very blunt instrument and could do as much damage to ADs as grey channels in some cases.
Some dealers play the system with web sales, they state they will not ship overseas but then also state that overseas buyers can arrange courier collection. Although a big disadvantage of that approach is the that in a country like the UK you pay the 20% tax that is normally deducted from overseas orders.

 

[JJB70]

In case it is of interest, Canon, Fujifilm, Sony and Panasonic have all confirmed that any of their global service centres will do service and repairs to equipment bought anywhere if it is registered or has a stamped AD warranty card. The question I asked them all was specific to buying from a Singaporean AD, however the tone of the responses seemed to infer that chargeable work is chargeable work regardless. Sony even said if I was a tourist I could request a tourist warranty which is an international warranty not available to locals (unfortunately I am considered to be a local here so don't qualify).
Only Nikon and Olympus have given equivocal answers.

 

[JJB70]

My first SLR was the Yashica 230AF in about 1987. It got stolen in about 1992 in a break in, but the idiot* left the lenses and took the body. It was discontinued and it took me a while to find a 2nd hand body. By then I'd moved on to Canon (EOS-650 and EOS-600). I've still got the lenses and body someplace.

*the burglar made the mistake of stealing about 150 of my CDs at the time (they were valuable on the 2nd hand market then). I knew my CDs inside out, every single one of them. It took me about a week of scouring pawnbrokers and 2nd hand shops before I came across a small number of my actual CDs. Cut along story short, I was able to provide a link the Police were unable obtain, and they were able to be at the next place he went to sell stolen gear with an extensive detailed list linking my CDs (and other things) to my break-in. A key piece of evidence was a Christmas gift tag in one of the CD books which I described where it would be and what it said. He had been doing 20 break-ins each day to feed a rampant drug habit.

I remember the evidence floor where I went to retrieve my stuff. I've never seen anything like it. So much loot.

He did 5 years in jail. Moral: Don't ever steal John's music.

The best thing of course was I was able to get back the most important discs to me. Like all the very first discs I ever bought, some very rare imports etc. Nothing was damaged either.

I won't like this given you were robbed but it's good the perpetrator was identified and did time. When my mother's house was burgled the Police visited her to give her a crime number so she could make an insurance claim and left it at that.

 

[dshreter]

What you heard from Nikon makes sense. In this struggling industry they need to protect their authorized dealers. One of the ways they do that is by establishing and communicating policies that encourage purchasing from an AD.

Authorized dealers must provide service for gear purchased in their territory. It’s one of their obligations (and benefits) of being an AD. Whether they provide service for anything else is at their discretion. It’s understandable that in an internet connected world they may not want to provide service to a customer that purchased their camera from an AD in a less expensive locale then comes in to their shop just for service. If they offer paid service and it’s business they desire then they can offer and advertise this, but I can see why Nikon wouldn’t obligate that they do so.

 

[JJB70]

What you heard from Nikon makes sense. In this struggling industry they need to protect their authorized dealers. One of the ways they do that is by establishing and communicating policies that encourage purchasing from an AD.

Authorized dealers must provide service for gear purchased in their territory. It’s one of their obligations (and benefits) of being an AD. Whether they provide service for anything else is at their discretion. It’s understandable that in an internet connected world they may not want to provide service to a customer that purchased their camera from an AD in a less expensive locale then comes in to their shop just for service. If they offer paid service and it’s business they desire then they can offer and advertise this, but I can see why Nikon wouldn’t obligate that they do so.

In the case of dealers I agree it is their choice. The question I asked various manufacturers wasn't in relation to dealers but their regional service centres (these days dealers will just send anything to the regional service center anyway). Even in that case I don't question that it is for the local subsidiary/distributor to decide, but I also think it is a relevant bit of information to consider when purchasing equipment. My own opinion is that declining to give a simple yes to a question of whether equipment sold through the AD network will have access to chargeable service and repair work in the global service/repair network is a bit shoddy. This is not grey market gear, it is gear bought through their AD network.

 

[JJB70]

I recieved a very prompt response from Nikon UK, as below (hopefully it is OK to post this, it's not personal and given the subject may be of interest to others):

Thank you for contacting Nikon customer support and your interest in Nikon products.

Normally, Nikon authorised repair centres in other countries would accept a camera for a paid repair. The key is applying to a repair centre listed on our website for that specific country. Distributors would not be inclined to accept such a camera, mostly because they don't do repairs themselves.

With repair centres, there are exceptions depending on the issue with the camera, so it is recommended to contact the repair centre directly regarding a specific issue. Sometimes, firmware and internal electronics have slight differences in different markets, while technicians are trained and licensed specifically for products in their region. Hence, their possible hesitations.

In terms of warranty, a product purchased in Singapore should be accepted under warranty in nearby countries in Asia. Our warranties are regional covering a number of countries in the area.

Hoping you would find the above useful. Let me know if there is anything else I can help you with.

Kind regards

Again, 10 out of 10 for such a quick response and answering the question I asked as opposed to a standard response which has nothing to do with what was asked. So in fairness, I have to say that Nikon in both Singapore and the UK have been excellent in terms of responsiveness. Unfortunately the warranty bit muddies the water a bit as Nikon Singapore's understanding is that any warranty work has to be done in Singapore with any postage at the customers expense. I don't want to criticise the people who responded as both have clearly tried to help so I'm grateful to them.

 

[LTig]

At one time it was pretty normal to have a second body, not just to have a stand by back-up but also if you wanted to mix films.

Yep. I bought a chrome Nikon FM2 in 1986 (for cold temperatures during ski mountaineering) and a second black body in 1989. One was loaded with low speed film and the other with high speed. The color of the body made it easy to grab the proper one.

Years later I couldn't resist an offer of a used F3 body with sport viewfinder and the magnifying viewfinder. Unfortunately it no longer works (refuses to switch on) while the FM2s seem to be indestructible. I used them until 2007 (switch to D200).